Off The Record | Episode #1 Show Notes

Brian Classen   -  

Brian Classen (00:00):
Well, welcome to Off the Record, a candid, casual conversation about life, culture, and church. And we are glad that you’ve joined us for our very first podcast here, as we jump in. We’re making progress. Listen, we’re only 1,771 podcasts behind the number one podcast in the world of Joe Rogan. So we’re making progress.

Zach King (00:18):
Just within our reach.

Brian Classen (00:19):
It’s within our reach. We’re glad you’ve joined us here. And that’s really our goal during this time, is just to really have conversations. Sunday mornings we get a chance to really communicate a lot of content but not really a chance to really sit and talk about that. And so thanks for joining us. We hope this is going to be a great venue to do that. You’re going to continue to hear more content that you didn’t hear in the context of our Sunday morning series. But also a chance for you to send questions and interact. And so we just ask you to join us, take a deep breath and come along with us for the ride.

Brian Classen (00:48):
Well, this series, we’re talking about mixtapes. It’s our great yearly series that we do on love and relationships and marriage. And today, I’m joined by a couple of my great friends and people I have the joy of doing life and being on staff together with. Pastor Zach King and Pastor Helen Musick. Thanks, guys, for joining us.

Zach King (01:03):
No problem.

Helen Musick (01:04):
Happy to be here.

Brian Classen (01:04):
Good to have you. Well, we’re talking about love and marriage and relationships, and we’re not experts on this, but we’ve been in relationships for a while. So why don’t you tell a little bit about yourselves, how long you’ve been married and anything about your family? So Helen, do you want to start us off?

Zach King (01:18):
Start us-

Brian Classen (01:19):
Yeah, start us off.

Helen Musick (01:19):
Thank you, thank you. Yeah, we’ve been married almost 39 years and that is a long time.

Zach King (01:26):
Got married when you were like 12 or 13, then.

Helen Musick (01:27):
14. So. And we have three kids and we have three grandkids. So very fun.

Brian Classen (01:34):
You are in that stage.

Zach King (01:35):
What do your grandkids call you?

Helen Musick (01:36):
Call me grandma.

Zach King (01:37):
Grandma.

Helen Musick (01:37):
We’re going with grandma.

Zach King (01:38):
Just straight grandma.

Helen Musick (01:39):
Straight grandma.

Brian Classen (01:40):
I love it.

Zach King (01:41):
No gama or other names?

Helen Musick (01:43):
Nope. Straight grandma.

Brian Classen (01:45):
Zach, how about you?

Zach King (01:46):
Yeah, I’ve been married to my beautiful wife, Ashley, since 2000. So we got married that year. So whatever year it is, that’s how long we’ve been married. It’s easy to remember. I’m a guy. I need that reminder. So 21 plus years. We have three kids. 16, 14, and nine. So a little behind you on that. But love being a dad. I love being a husband as well.

Brian Classen (02:08):
Well, I think we’re right between you guys. So similar, we got married in 1990. Keeps it easy for me to remember. So coming on 31 years as we’ve been married. Two adult kids that are both married, no grandkids yet. So we find ourselves-

Helen Musick (02:20):
Come on.

Brian Classen (02:21):
… kind of in between as we go. So as we kind of think and talk about that, why don’t we go back and just talk a little bit about some of the things that we’ve talked about the last two Sundays in our series dealing this, really that first week was what every man wants and the second one was what every woman wants. But both those, we really started with this, by the very nature of the title, that the reality that men and women have different needs uniquely created by God from the beginning. And one of the key passages that really was that foundation was that passage found in Ephesians. And I know, Zach, you’ve preached on that before in the past. For maybe those that aren’t familiar with that, you want to just lay a little bit of that groundwork for us?

Zach King (02:55):
Yeah, so Ephesians five is a great chapter, just kind of talking about men and women, husbands and wives. It’s a great book called Love and Respect that I used to teach on. Whenever I do weddings, I typically kind of focus on this passage. And so the verse is Ephesians 5:33, says, “However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself and the wife must respect her husband.” I think the point that I just want to make from a clarity standpoint is like, obviously like it’s saying, Helen, your greatest need is love and my greatest need is respect.

Zach King (03:27):
It doesn’t mean that you don’t need respect. Doesn’t mean that I don’t need love. It just means the way that God has designed us and wired us means that that is your greatest need, that’s my greatest need is respect and yours is love. And so it doesn’t mean that you’re not looking for your husband to respect you, I’m looking for my wife to love me. I can feel unloved. You can feel disrespected. But as far as the way that we’re wired, it’s just saying that they’re both needs, but this one’s just a little bit higher than the other one, based on the way God’s designed us.

Brian Classen (03:52):
Yeah, I think that’s such a great perspective and we know that the crazy cycle begins when that’s not being true. When our wives don’t feel loved, they struggle to show respect. And when a man doesn’t feel respected, he fails many times to show love. And we just kind of get moving around in that cycle.

Zach King (04:09):
I know I’ve been on that crazy cycle in my marriage plenty of times.

Brian Classen (04:12):
And I think that’s such a good point. I think we can all look back on the years we’ve been married. There have been seasons and cycles. There have been seasons when it has gone easy and seasons it’s been really rough. And I look at that, I think about the season of life you’re in right now, Zach. For Tammy and I, that was the hardest years of our marriage, when the kids were young. I mean, it was just like Tammy, all the energy was focused there. I’m feeling like there’s no energy for me. I’m not meeting her needs and helping the way I should be. And I’m frustrated. It was easier to stay at the office than go home and help. She’s feeling isolated. And I remember we struggled some of those years just in that season of disconnecting. But the hope is, Helen, what would you say? I mean, what’s the hope for couples? I think a lot of our young families who feel like they’re in that moment, that season.

Helen Musick (04:58):
Yeah. I remember when someone talked to me about understanding that your marriage relationship, you have within that relationship lots of relationships. So you’re business partners, you’re running a home, family, money, finances, you’re sharing in parenting, which is challenging in and of itself. It brings out for you your own insecurities, needs, through your own parenting styles. You’re also lovers. You’re also just really good friends. And knowing that that season of parenting is that kind of heightened season when you give most attention to that. And just remember, there’s those other parts of your relationship and trying to keep those in balance as well.

Brian Classen (05:43):
Yeah. I think that’s so good. And I guess, whenever you’re in it, you think it’s going to be forever. I remember in those younger years, like this is never going to change. And now we look back with a few more years as we are older and look back and say, “The days were long but the years were short.” In that season, there was hope. And so I think that is such just, I guess, encouragement, Zach, for families who are living in the world you are right now. It’s all-consuming. Like it’s an amazing time, but it is just a season. And just to kind of get through that.

Brian Classen (06:12):
So I think when we’re in those moments, it becomes even more intentional that we really focus in and figure out how do I really meet the needs of my spouse? How do I need to think about that? Because we get this drift, right? If we don’t do this well during those younger years when everything becomes focused on the kids, we tend to gravitate emotionally in our connections to our children, our identity is found there, our habits get there. And then all of a sudden, the kids leave and you get to the season of life where I’m at, where you’re empty nester and you’re looking across the table, like, “I don’t even know who this person is.” I mean, this was the person who drove the kids around and made sack lunches, but we’re not connected. And you have this vulnerable point.

Brian Classen (06:51):
And then you get to the season where you’re moving to, Helen, where you just have more time. And it’s even at a different level of even caring for one another that you go. What have you found to be maybe one key thing for each of those little seasons of life as you’ve thought about those?

Helen Musick (07:06):
I don’t know. I think I said to a newly-wed just on Sunday after church, I said, “Hey, just remember, you’re kind of having growing pains.” That’s a hard season to me. I mean, those early years, they were hard for me. Those were probably the hardest years of just learning how to do this thing with all those different relationships going on. But I think to embrace each season and to keep growing through them, I mean, honestly for us, that’s been kind of the exciting thing is knowing that who we’re becoming and growing to be through the unique seasons is kind of an adventure of dating somebody new in a sense. I’m really looking forward, John hasn’t retired yet, but I’m looking forward to it, which I think says something about maybe how we’ve invested in the last seasons. But perseverance is the key, bottom line, isn’t it?

Brian Classen (08:11):
Yeah. But I think you’re at where we all want to get to. We really want to get to that season of life where we’re still loving, focused on each other, looking forward to even those. And so we get there by going back to really identifying and being intentional about the needs of one another.

Brian Classen (08:27):
Helen, let’s start a little bit with yours, ladies first. Last week, you talked a little bit about what every woman wants. And you gave us, as men, a wonderful little acrostic to kind of help us think through that.

Helen Musick (08:37):
I was keeping it simple.

Brian Classen (08:37):
Yes, it was.

Helen Musick (08:37):
Keeping it simple for the men.

Brian Classen (08:41):
So we appreciated that. Can you just, again, share with us a little bit of what that was, and maybe just a couple thoughts on each one.

Helen Musick (08:47):
Yeah. I used the acrostic love, like Zach just read from Ephesians, that’s our greatest need. And I actually really appreciated the insight that there’s a difference between need and want. We want a lot, what women want. We want a ton of stuff. But if we can get back to the need, there’s something that’s attainable there because it’s God-given. And so men, you can meet this need, which is their want as well. So it was love. And stands for listen. And I kind of gave the guys two thoughts there that attentiveness trumps timing, which can be a challenge for some men just to be present and attentive. And then reflection trumps correction, which is a big deal too, because you guys are so good at solving problems and that’s the way you express love to us, when we just need you to be kind of present with us.

Brian Classen (09:37):
Listening. I was going to ask you, Zach, you’re kind in the midst. You’ve got a lot going on, kids at school, kids in sports, gymnastics, and all of this. And Ashley’s trying to balance this all with you. How do you work that you’re able to be present emotionally? How, for you, have been some of the things that have helped you to be a good listener, because I think that’s one of the skills that you really have in the midst of all the chaos that’s life right now?

Zach King (09:59):
Yeah, I think it’s interesting season for us. We were kind of the opposite. We found marriage really easier for several years. And then it got really challenging when we had kids. That was when it really hit for us. And then it’s kind of what you mentioned earlier, Brian, like we really, 90% of our conversations, if we’re not careful, become around ministry or our kids and really not about us or our lives or our desires, our dreams, our goals, our visions. That kind of stuff has all fallen to the wayside [crosstalk 00:10:25].

Brian Classen (10:24):
You’re kind of running logistics every day, right? Who’s picking up, who’s picking up, yeah.

Zach King (10:28):
Exactly. Who’s picking up. We’ve got three kids in three different places and one that will start driving in April. So we’re so thankful to have another driver in the house. And so yeah, I think one thing that I’ve been trying to learn, I’m not great at it yet, is just whether it’s my wife or even my kids, when they’re sharing, just to say, “Hey, did you want me to give you advice or counsel on that or did you just wanted somebody to listen?” And when you ask that question, because a lot of times, you’re right, she just needs to vent or they need to vent, and they don’t want me to solve their problem. They don’t me to fix it. And as a guy, as a coach, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s fix it. Let’s solve this thing. Let’s get it taken care of.” And they’re like, “No, I just needed to share where I’m at. I just need you to listen. I’ve had no one to listen.”

Zach King (11:07):
I think for Ashley, with our kids, now they’re getting older, when they were younger, especially, it was just like, “I need an adult to talk to. I’ve been talking to children all day and I just need someone with a little more maturity to listen to where I’m at right now.” And so I think we’re still figuring that out and we’re still figuring out even how, we’ve talked about our future and it’s like, “Hey, we need to find a hobby together so when the kids are gone, we have a shared interest that we love that’s not just our children.”

Helen Musick (11:34):
That’s good.

Zach King (11:34):
And so we’re kind of in those stages of going, hey, we got one out of the house in two years and that’s like, whoa, two years left as a dad. Like what have I not taught him yet that he needs to know to go into the world? So we’re just kind of getting to that stage now.

Brian Classen (11:47):
That’s really good. So L’s listening.

Helen Musick (11:49):
Yeah, L is listening. You’re doing a great job at that, Zach. Keep it up. O is observe. So women want to be seen. They want to be noticed.

Brian Classen (12:00):
I see you, Helen.

Helen Musick (12:03):
Yes, thank you.

Helen Musick (12:03):
Noticed, and-

Brian Classen (12:03):
I see you, Helen.

Helen Musick (12:03):
Yes. Thank you. But it’s not just physically, but it really is who I am to you as my husband and what I do that it matters. It’s really no different than what you guys want. I think that’s where the respect thing comes in. Respect who I am and respect what I do. I wonder if… It’s really interesting, you two guys found the child rearing years the most challenging time in your marriage, and that was not true for me as a woman. It maybe was the most fulfilling because I had this goal, this role, this task, the business part of our relationship I had a lot going. And it’s just interesting to think about that. We need you to observe that we’re doing that right and it matters to you. So.

Brian Classen (12:51):
Yeah, and I think what’s hard always on the guys end is we were the number one, the center of the universe. And now all of a sudden, we’re barely in the galaxy. And this wonderful fun gal we were dating and married and all this fun has now become mom. And I think-

Helen Musick (13:06):
Running the show kind of, in some ways.

Brian Classen (13:08):
[crosstalk 00:13:08] She’s running the show.

Helen Musick (13:08):
Sometimes.

Brian Classen (13:09):
And finding a deep level of fulfillment and identity and purpose, like you said, within that. And you’re kind of like, “Well, where did I go in the midst of this?” And if we’re not careful, I think it’s so easy for guys… Passivity is always the easiest thing to default to at home. We don’t do it in the business. We don’t do it in competitive natures, but at home. And we tend just to pull back. And so I think for guys that creates the disconnect, because we take a step back rather than really stepping into that process. So that’s good. Oh, just observing, right. Acknowledging that we’re there. Yeah. Bring us to V.

Helen Musick (13:41):
V is value, which is probably the foundational need of a woman, to know that she’s valued. And that really comes through the husband’s faithfulness to the marriage covenant and to her that he has eyes only for her. So we talked a little bit about you value us when you keep courting us, you keep getting to know us and you keep only having eyes for us.

Brian Classen (14:13):
That’s really good. What would be maybe in your relationship one way? Because for guys, I think it’s always give me something practical, tangible. What can I do with it? What’s a way for you that John shows value to you?

Helen Musick (14:29):
That’s a great question, because kind of bounces over to that observe side too. But I think bottom line is he has been faithful to me. I have never, and unfortunately this is not the experience of many people, but I have never questioned his faithfulness to me. And we really made a decision early on that this thing was for life. And if that’s true, we were going to have to work really freaking hard at this. And I remember being in this 20 years, at our 20 year anniversary, and there were some things I was kind of going, “I don’t want to be like this for the next 20. We’re only 20 years into this. We’ve got to keep getting to know each other and changing some things.” But faithfulness for sure, for me.

Brian Classen (15:21):
Yeah. That’s such a good one. And for those that haven’t experienced that or have had that trust broken, I think that’s why I appreciate… I know for many this is such a hard series. I mean, it brings up so much of our own brokenness, our own woundedness. Some of us have experienced that at different levels and some have experienced it at the deepest level of betrayal. And even abuse in these areas just creates that woundedness, that when we get into these things, those walls rise up, the hurt comes up. And I mean, isn’t marriage amazing? We take two broken people with all of our baggage and you put us in a room and a house together and say, “Go do life together.” And it’s no wonder it’s difficult and it’s no wonder it’s a struggle. And I think that’s where the hope of the Lord comes in that and hope that we continue to grow and we continue, we can do it. We just got to-

Helen Musick (16:13):
It can be done.

Brian Classen (16:13):
It can be done.

Helen Musick (16:15):
Yeah.

Brian Classen (16:15):
With a lot of work. So valuing there. And then give us our last one there, just with E.

Helen Musick (16:19):
The last one is embrace. And just talking about the women’s need to be held physically but I think also emotionally and spiritually in our lives.

Brian Classen (16:32):
That’s really, really good. It’s a hard thing to define, isn’t it? You know when you don’t have it and you’re not experiencing it, but sometimes it’s hard to know what to do there. Zach, because you’ve kind of thought about that, it was a great sermon on Sunday as we thought about those four things. What maybe stuck out to you in terms of just as we think about our wives and how do we show that kind of?

Zach King (16:54):
Yeah I think the one that really stuck out to me was just I think the listen piece. I think a lot of times I don’t listen with the intent to understand, I listen with the intent to respond. Because I think just processing through creating moments to listen, instead of it being random. I want to be more intentional about those times where it’s like, “Hey Ashley, how was your day? What are you walking through? What were your highs? What were your lows?” And letting her share. And not letting her share so I can try to solve the problem or I can respond like, “Oh.” Because as a guy, she’ll be talking, I’ll be like, “Oh I got this great solution to this.” And I’m so I’m missing like a third of what she’s saying because I’m already on to how to solve it, versus going like, “No, I just need to listen with the intent to understand with the intent to love her and to value her and respect her day and where she’s at.”

Zach King (17:42):
And so I think that one kind of hit me pretty hard from that standpoint, just going like I don’t make as many times as I need to in the regular schedule. Because then it’s like if you wait two weeks or three weeks to have those moments, so many things have passed. So many moments, so many emotions, so many feelings, so many things. And at that point you’re playing catch-up and you’re being reactionary versus being proactive and really going, “Okay, great. Now what’s next?” And so I think the listen one probably stuck out to me well.

Brian Classen (18:11):
I think it’s finding the rhythm of when that works. So for Tammy and I remember when kids were younger, we lived about five minutes from the church. And we had to really figure this out because I would come, leave the office after just so much rolling in my mind, and I would roll to the house within five minutes. And the moment I opened the door, she’s like, “Adult conversation,” and she’s ready just to unload everything. And I am just trying to debrief and relax. And so the tension would come. It’s like she’s trying to share it and I’m not present. I’m just, “Can we just get done so I can go just take my shoes off and sit. So we really had to, for us, it was just practically say, “How does this work?” And so it was one or two things. Either I need to figure out how to lengthen my ride from the church to the house because in five minutes I couldn’t detox from it all.

Brian Classen (19:01):
We reached where, “When I get home baby, you can give me just 15 minutes. Let me get in, get settled and then I’ll come and we can initiate.” That helped us a lot because it just helped me to be more present. It helped her to realize I wasn’t trying to ignore her issues. I just needed a moment to kind of be present. And so for us it was just trying to figure out what those practical times had worked for us.

Zach King (19:23):
Yeah. We’re in this weird season, if you’re listening and you’re a parent of a teenager, it’s like you realize teenagers really open up at night. That’s their time to be like, “Here was about my day, and here’s this person I like,” or whatever the things they’re talking about. And so we used to… Nine to midnight was kind of our time. And then our kids got older and now they took that time. And we don’t want to take it back because we really enjoy them opening up and having conversations with us. But now it’s like we’re sending them to bed when we’re going to bed. It’s like, “Okay guys, it’s school. We all got to go to bed. I got work.” And so we kind of lost that time. So we’re just finding a new rhythm of “Okay, if I’m coming to the church later because I’m going to be here later, we’ll talk in the morning or we’ll talk on the phone.”

Zach King (20:05):
And we’re trying other times because it’s like, you don’t want to give up that time with your kids, but I need to value that time with my wife on an equal or higher level. I joke with my kids is they all know that I love my wife more than all of them. And that’s their joke. They’ll be like, “We know Dad, you love Mom more than us.” I’m like, “Yeah, it starts with that.” So then knowing that I think kind of puts it in a proper place.

Brian Classen (20:25):
That’s really good. And one plan doesn’t work all seasons. Right?

Zach King (20:28):
Right.

Brian Classen (20:29):
We come up with a plan for this week and-

Helen Musick (20:30):
Right. As soon as you got it, it’s changed.

Brian Classen (20:31):
Something’s different, your kids get a little older, seasons change. And so it just comes back to that communication. Obviously the greatest marriage advice I can ever give is just unexpressed expectations lead to unmet expectations. So you just got to talk about it. I feel like you’re not hearing me then this is what I need to be able to do those things. Helen, any other thoughts on us as we think just about that idea of what every woman wants or really what every woman needs?

Helen Musick (20:56):
I think you guys are really addressing this in a great way. And I think the great thing is for the women to realize this really goes two ways. And the things that we love and value and need is a man’s need just as much as ours.

Brian Classen (21:17):
Yeah. That’s real good. Well, the first week we started with that area of just what every man wants. And I always chuckle and Tammy laughed. It’s probably more than what the ladies think right off the bat. It’s more than just a one point sermon. Yet-

Zach King (21:30):
Some days it’s a one point sermon.

Brian Classen (21:33):
We’re happy with a one point sermon, but there’s [crosstalk 00:21:36].

Helen Musick (21:35):
If we start with a one point sermon-

Brian Classen (21:37):
[crosstalk 00:21:37] Everything gets easier.

Helen Musick (21:40):
… then they can listen to the other three points.

Brian Classen (21:40):
That’s right. So, what I actually find is-

Zach King (21:40):
I’m all ears now.

Brian Classen (21:41):
Yeah. That’s right. High attendance Sunday, here we go. But [inaudible 00:21:46] as we think about men, even that week, it just was a challenge for us as men to reminded who you are and who God has uniquely created you to be. Because our world has just continued to just devalue, I think, men in such a way. And so if you were that Sunday, if you didn’t get a chance, go back and watch that one. We really talked again, back to Genesis, what God says, “Men, this is what you’re here to do.” Genesis 2:15 says, “Man, the role of every man is to work and protect.” There’s just this value, intrinsic value of being that kind of a provider. And again, I think John Eldredge has really capitalized the thought so well. Every man needs a battle to fight and an adventure to live and a beauty to rescue.

Brian Classen (22:28):
There is this God given purpose that’s within us. And I think when it comes back to that Ephesians 5, like you shared Zach, this idea of that core value from men is that need to be respected. It comes back to being respected for what he’s able to do and provide in such a powerful way. As you think about that. Helen, for as a woman as you kind of process that this week, what’s something that maybe stuck out to you as you think about the needs of men with that in context?

Helen Musick (22:56):
It’s really a privilege to be the person that has the power to speak courage into someone, to speak truth into someone. And as a wife, we get to do that with our husbands. So this innate need that they have to do exactly what you were talking about, to have purpose and to know that what they do makes a difference for us stuck out greatly. I mean, just a side note, I was thinking about the whole joke that you started with that this could be a really short sermon for men, what they want. But for us as women to really understand that that’s a gift to us that a man’s desire, a beauty to rescue or to pursue is a part of who they are.

Helen Musick (24:03):
… rescue or to pursue is a part of who they are. And it’s a way that they express love. It just made a difference in my relationship to know I’m the only person that gets to speak to that part of my husband’s life. That is such a privilege to me. And when I sort of changed my understanding of how important in our relationship sex really is, it changed the way I saw him and his need and the role that I get to play, which is like none other. It just, I don’t know. Maybe it helps somebody.

Brian Classen (24:38):
Yeah, no, it’s a powerful thing. And I think … And you model and show it so well, I think sometimes I think in our culture too, when we hear that last little phrase, a beauty to rescue, if we’re not careful, I would think for women, the challenge is to interpret that wrongly to say, “Are you saying I’m weak and incapable of caring for myself, and so I need to be rescued by a man.” And I think you said it so well that the power is always is that comes out of a point of strength. And I always say so many times to our women, you don’t ever have to become less, so your man can become more. You just need to be who God created you to be and allow him to be that too. And I think there’s there’s truth there, but there is, is that wonderful gift of allowing him to rescue, to pursue, to value and cherish you at such a level that makes such a difference there.

Zach King (25:33):
I love what you said, Helen, because I feel like if guys are really honest, we’re very insecure.

Helen Musick (25:38):
Right.

Zach King (25:39):
And so our wives have the ability to [crosstalk 00:25:41].

Helen Musick (25:40):
I didn’t mean to agree with that so fast.

Zach King (25:41):
No you did.

Helen Musick (25:41):
Sorry.

Zach King (25:43):
It was great. It was great. So, I mean, truth is truth, right? So, but I feel like you guys do have the power. My wife has the power in my life to either fan that insecurity into more insecurity or to fan that flame to go, “No, this is who I see that you are. And I appreciate this about you.” And that can happen with just a statement or a look or not intentional time and those kind of things. And so I think it’s just knowing, we all have different love languages, and what that looks like for us.

Zach King (26:14):
And so I think we all have the ability to say, “Well, this is my love language. And I want to force that love language on you,” but the reality is they’re different. And so it’s being able to our own insecurities and be like, “Hey, I’m going to love her like this because this is the way she needs to be loved. She’s going to love me because that’s the way I need to be loved as well.” And so you guys do really have that. As we do as well, right? We can fan your insecurities just as quickly.

Brian Classen (26:37):
I think in every man there’s that fragile confidence. They always appear that way. And I think you said it so well, Helen, there is a sense of just that the gift of, what every man wants is he just wants his wife to be his biggest cheerleader. And just to know like they are believing in us, they are for us if they have the outfit it’s bonus, but either way that they’re just our biggest cheerleaders out there because we lose that over age. I kept thinking back, think about your high school days, I mean, she would wear your jersey for the pep rally or back if some of us are old enough, there’s a letterman jacket, even though it was three sizes too big, she put that on and would walk through school and you’re like, “Ah, she thinks I’m pretty great.”

Brian Classen (27:16):
And I think there’s such power for the women in our lives to just be reminded their words really, really matter. And even though if your guy doesn’t respond or doesn’t act like they do, it really speaks to the heart and the soul in such a way. So every man wants that sense of just the affirmation that comes from that, the battle, the fight, the adventure to live. And I encourage even for our wives and ladies, one of the little phrases I used on that Sunday, what’s rewarded gets repeated and what’s nagged gets neglected. And the challenge is I think when we get into some bad cycles and I always say the challenges when men act like boys, women begin to act like mothers and-

Helen Musick (27:56):
Yeah, that was so good.

Brian Classen (27:57):
And we roll into that. So we all have, we play a role within that. Zach, maybe share from [inaudible 00:28:03] how is it in the heart of a man? Why is that such a big deal when it moves to that point like we’re feeling like we’re being nagged? And I know from the point of our wives and women, it’s like, “It’s not where I want to be. I don’t want to keep … I feel like I’m having to nag, but it’s the only way I can seem to get any movement out of you.” When we get into that cycle. How does that really affect the heart and the motivation of a man?

Zach King (28:24):
I think it’s hard. I think we both, well, my wife and I have been in those zones, I feel like neither one of us wants to break first. It’s almost like this, no one wants to be humble enough to be like, “Okay, well let’s reset this thing.” And I think in my quietness of my own heart, I go, “I think I started that,” but I didn’t want to be the first one to admit that I started that because I made a comment and then she piped back at me and then I felt disrespected. So then I stepped on her. I stepped on her [inaudible 00:28:52] which is love and the cycle just continues and continues until somebody finally just stops and says, “Hey, I’m really sorry. I know you lashed out because of what I did. And we kind of started that cycle,” and I’m going to start the conversation to hopefully break that cycle and let’s talk about it and walk through that.

Zach King (29:10):
But I think sometimes that can happen. It’s kind of like I talked weeks ago about that maturity lag where it’s like, when God asks you to do something, how long does it take for you to respond and is responding a lot quicker, it’s that maturity. I think over 21 years of marriage, we’ve both gotten better at the lag time being shorter. It’s gone from like, “Oh, we can hold this [inaudible 00:29:29] for hours or days.” Now it’s like-

Helen Musick (29:31):
That’s true.

Zach King (29:31):
… I can come back in five minutes and go, “Wow. That was pretty jacked up. I’m really sorry that I said that or that I responded that way or whatever. Can we talk about that?” And I think when somebody’s willing to kind of go first, it really does break the ice. It really does break the tension in the room. And that person’s like, “Of course I forgive you and yeah, I messed up too and let’s have this conversation.”

Brian Classen (29:53):
I think that falls on us as men too. I think we’ve got to be the initiators. Our wives tend to have a little more sensitivity towards that and we tend to have passivity towards that. And I just think the role of a godly husband and father and spiritual leader in these areas is it’s in these moments of tension, we’ve got to be the initiators. We’ve got to move into the tension rather than re treat and head to the man cave and I’ll see you in three days. We’ve got to be the ones. Because I think it speaks to our wives, how much we value the relationship.

Helen Musick (30:23):
It does. When you guys move towards us in that way with grace and forgiveness and humility. Then it just does unlock that sense of respect. And I do think just scripturally, that you are to love us like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her. And I see that in men, I see it in my husband for sure that he is the initiator of forgiveness, which is, of offering forgiveness, which is Jesus and what Jesus does.

Brian Classen (30:51):
That’s a great word. I think the other part is just that first part of that what’s rewarded is repeated. And I think it’s just the encouragement. If you find yourself even today, as you’re listening to this, like “We’re just in this bad cycle and it doesn’t seem like we can get out of it and I can’t see any good.” Try to give those fresh eyes to say, “Let me find and see in the context of what my husband is doing well.”

Brian Classen (31:18):
We can make the list. We’ve been married long enough. You can make the list of all the things they’re not. And the challenge is that’s not moving the bar forward relationally. So where can I find places that I really see it’s there and where can I reward that, acknowledge that? Where can I take that list of 10 things that are these annoyances and figure out these are the three things that really are important because if it gets so big, it just feels like I’m failing at every area of my life and I’m failing at every area of this marriage and relationship. But if I had a couple things, it gives me a chance to respond and I think have some successes, which is, I think so important because we just, and so quickly get into that cycle. It’s never going to change. I can’t get over this. I’m failing. And again, when we, especially, I think in the heart of men and we feel like a failure, we tend to just close up again and become passive and move our ways back.

Zach King (32:08):
One practical thing that we’ve been trying to do better at is in our marriage and at the house is just, there was a season where we never thanked each other for the normal expectations of our roles. So it’s like if I was mowing the yard or I helped cook or she was running the kids around everywhere. It’s a simple like, “Hey, thanks so much for like being happy cab for the kids this week. Thanks so much for doing the laundry. Thanks for having dinner.” Where it’s easy just to go, “I don’t need to thank because that’s just, those are our roles. We created expectations and with what we do,” but when she thanks me for taking the trash out or doing whatever it’s like, “Oh, well she didn’t need to, it’s my job.”

Zach King (32:44):
I do it. We kind of set those roles a long time ago in what we do. I don’t mean male and female roles. I just mean we decided what chores we’re doing between the two of us. But when she says thank you for the little things I’m like, “Oh, that’s really cool.” And I think it’s easy to kind of take each other for granted in those seasons where it’s like, “Well, of course you’re going to do that. That’s part of your job.” And so I think it’s just being able to be grateful in the little things and grateful and even the expected things.

Helen Musick (33:11):
I think going back to that whole business model and knowing these are just things you do in the business and you do them because you’re good at it. You don’t need her to do them, because you’re good at that part. And, but being appreciated in it makes a difference for you.

Brian Classen (33:28):
Yeah. That’s a good word. So much of what we’re talking about here is trying to just be intentional. Think of the other’s placement before ourselves. I know for Tammy and I, you come away with this, maybe the series or hear this podcast, “I’m going to do better now,” but what does that look like? And I think trying to make sure we’re putting our energy in something that really does speak to the heart of the others. For Tammy and I, Gary Chapman’s been a series that’s been out for a long time, but the Five Love Languages was so helpful for us. If you’re not familiar with that, let me just give you this. If you go to fivelovelanguages.com, they’ve got an assessment. If you’re not familiar, it helps you understand these, but there’s really five love languages. It’s words of affirmation, acts of service, physical touch, quality time, and gift giving. And there’s some description on each one of those. Some of those are pretty self explanatory.

Brian Classen (34:18):
But the premise that really helped me in this was, is that we tend to express love to our partner in the same love language that we want to express back to ourselves. And the challenge is, if that’s not your spouse’s or your partner’s love language, it’s really getting missed. And so I remember thinking, especially when the kids were young, “Hey, I’m doing the dishes. I’m taking out the garbage, I’m doing these acts of service. This should be filling her cup.” And what I missed was Tammy’s love language was actually words. So doing those in silence was moving the bar zero, along those ways. And for us, we had to be able to identify for ourselves. And then for the other one, what those were, because I go back again on expressed expectations, lead to unmet expectations. So how about for you and John? What are your guys’ love languages and what does that look like for you?

Helen Musick (35:12):
It’s challenging because mine is acts of service and that is so hard for him. Sorry, babe.

Zach King (35:19):
Hope you’re listening, John. Take some notes, buddy.

Helen Musick (35:23):
I mean he, because it’s not his and so I’m always doing all this stuff and serving and it does mean something to him, but anyway. Maybe we should have a counseling session on this. I don’t know.

Brian Classen (35:35):
But isn’t it amazing in so many and we’re going to talk about it our next one. And just with intimacy and sex, all of this is the dying of self. None of it comes just naturally, organically in terms of, I wish my spouse had the same love language, but it’s going to take effort on my part to really speak it. So it’s no surprise that you and John have different ones because it’s what makes the-

Helen Musick (35:55):
A big aha was when I really started to see his, the way he works and provides for us is the ultimate act of-

Helen Musick (36:03):
… works and provides for us is the ultimate act of service. And when I was able to speak to that and see, oh my gosh, are you kidding me? He works so hard and sacrifices so much and able to provide for us. And that is the ultimate act of service. Then that switched for me, just seeing that. For him, his is physical touch, so I do my best to make that happen.

Zach King (36:31):
You can just leave it at that. [crosstalk 00:36:35]. We’re good.

Brian Classen (36:36):
How about you, Zach? How about for you guys? What does that look like in yours?

Zach King (36:38):
Yeah, [Ashley’s 00:36:39] is definitely acts of service would be number one and then gift giving would be number two. And I feel like the acts of service thing, that one comes fairly natural for me to do. I like what you said. I haven’t really thought of that, from a sense of I’m doing the act of service by providing and things like that. But more of just [crosstalk 00:36:57]-

Helen Musick (36:57):
Well, I think women would see that.

Zach King (36:58):
… coming home and not just putting my feet up, but coming home and… I have a little bit longer drive than Brian on the way home. I have about 15, 20 minutes. And when I get home, I don’t know, part of it’s I have the spiritual gift of compartmentalization. So I can literally just shut off what happened at church. It doesn’t matter what it is. And just go straight into dad/husband mode. And then flip it back on at night if I need to kind of thing.

Zach King (37:22):
And so I really just learned to get home and do I need to help with dinner? Do I need to help with the dishes or with the kids’ homework and things like that? And that really does fill her love tank up pretty good. And then I’m terrible at the gift giving. She’s great at it. I’ll be like, “You just want to get yourself something? That sounds great.”

Helen Musick (37:41):
You’re so good at it.

Zach King (37:42):
We joked about, she got this air fryer for Christmas and we’ve been using it nonstop. And literally, she bought it. It came in, and she said, “Hey, you should probably check the front door.” And I got the gift, hid it. I don’t know why. She knew what it was. And I wrapped it. That was the extent of my gift giving.

Helen Musick (37:59):
You get points for wrapping it.

Zach King (38:00):
I get points for wrapping it. So those are her two. And then mine are different. Mine are physical touch and then words of affirmation. We do this… [inaudible 00:38:10] that colors thing and our colors are different, too. We really are opposites in who we are and the way God’s wired us. So we really have to work really hard to make sure that we’re meeting the other person’s needs in that way.

Brian Classen (38:20):
That’s a good one. Yeah, Tammy’s is words of affirmation and mine’s are gifts given. Again, and both of us say we are terrible at each other’s ones. She’s not a great gift giver and I’m terrible at words of affirmation. The right words of affirmation.

Helen Musick (38:35):
Yes.

Brian Classen (38:35):
So I’m learning that part.

Zach King (38:37):
What would be the wrong words, Brian? [crosstalk 00:38:39]-

Brian Classen (38:39):
Well, probably most of the words, very generic. Here’s what I… You look nice. Really.

Zach King (38:46):
Get more specific [crosstalk 00:38:48].

Brian Classen (38:48):
What looks nice?

Zach King (38:48):
What part of me looks nice?

Brian Classen (38:50):
So when Helen [inaudible 00:38:51] the other day, my ribs are still sore. Because I got a few jabs, like, “Do you hear all those wonderful words that she’s using?” I think it’s [crosstalk 00:38:58].

Helen Musick (38:57):
I was intentionally very descriptive in those words.

Brian Classen (39:01):
Descriptive words is my problem.

Helen Musick (39:02):
I was, yes.

Brian Classen (39:02):
I tend to be like, I thought I acknowledged. I thought that was enough. One thing that’s helped us, words of affirmation aren’t great for me and I’m not good at cards. So we have a dry erase marker that’s in the bathroom on the mirrors. And so we probably write the most notes to one another just on the mirrors when people get up in the morning. If it’s quick, it’s accessible, and it’s visible, I tend to do a better job of remembering it. I think just trying to figure out whatever your significant other’s love language is. What do I need to do to try to figure out, to make that more visible, more obvious ways that it’s repeatable?

Brian Classen (39:37):
And not make it such a big deal. Sometimes it seems like it’s such an overwhelming thing, like I got to get flowers and do a card. I’ll never do it. But just what are the small, practical-

Helen Musick (39:46):
That’s good.

Brian Classen (39:46):
… things that we do? And then they change, don’t they? They change a little bit through seasons of life. Acts of service, when things are overwhelming, when there’s less than other words come in and… I always try to ask Tammy and say, “What’s your love language?” She’s like, “All of them.” It’s like, okay, no wonder I’m struggling.

Zach King (40:02):
That’s easy though.

Brian Classen (40:03):
Yeah. That’s really good. Well, as we think a little bit about this area of just relationships, and as we get started, maybe what’s one word of just encouragement or hope that we give? Because we know today, a lot of these are reaching some folks that are really in the midst of a difficult time. And they’re wondering, are we going to be able to get through this? Or I’ve tried this and I’m doing all the things you’re saying and my spouse isn’t responding, and I’m getting nowhere. Well, maybe just some words of encouragement that find themselves really in a dark season.

Zach King (40:37):
A little bit like John and Helen, Ashley and I decided early on that we’ve predetermined that we were going to persevere no matter what we walked through. And so I think part of it is just creating some expectations on the front end. Whether you’re dating someone or engaged or married or whatever that looks like. And then the other thing that I think as a coach… I coach a lot of my kids’ sports. I always tell people, “You can only control two things in sports.” Really it’s a life thing, is you can control your attitude and your effort.

Zach King (41:06):
I think that’s the part that in any relationship, it’s like, I can’t control how she’s going to respond. I can’t control what she’s going to say or do. But I can control my attitude and my effort towards those things. And so being able to know that however I react, I can control that part of it. And so just being able to really own that part of it. And then I would say the other biggest thing for us in our relationship has just been not worrying about who’s going to ask for forgiveness first or break first, but it really is just… And all of our sin and all of our mess ups are just because we’re selfish people. So being able to own that and just be like, “I did this. It’s because I’m selfish. Here’s where it’s at.”

Zach King (41:51):
And there’s something so humbling about that. Never once have I told my wife, “I messed up. I’m so sorry. Can you forgive me?” And she was like, “Nah. I’m not going to do that.” I think there’s just something about laying it out there that’s so freeing and it allows that person to be like, “Well, maybe it wasn’t all on you. Maybe there was a [inaudible 00:42:10] as well.”

Brian Classen (42:11):
Yeah, that’s good.

Zach King (42:12):
[crosstalk 00:42:12] those conversations.

Brian Classen (42:12):
That’s good.

Helen Musick (42:13):
That is good, Zach. Just to build on that, I think I would just build on that and say don’t do this alone. Find couples that have what you want and hang out with them. I think that that’s important in marriage. I think having also your own sense of connection and working individually to become healthy people makes the marriage a healthy marriage. I would add that to that. I think a faith community is just important in that. Where people are for marriage and will come alongside of you to help you all in whatever stage you’re in. There’s always someone that’s ahead of you that’s done this right.

Helen Musick (43:03):
So that’s why there’s always hope. Whether there’s marriages out there right now that are just barely hanging on, in our faith community, there’s other couples that were there 10 years ago or 5 years ago. And they can say, “Here’s how we got here. Do you want us to help?” I’d say not do it alone.

Brian Classen (43:21):
Yeah. That’s such a great, powerful word. And I think it’s seeking those folks out, finding a good Christian counselor. I think most couples, at some season, just needed that outside help, that outside voice and perspective that’s been so helpful, and just not being prideful. I love what you said at first. It may be the case where you have to go alone to some of these things until your spouse is at the point of responding, if they do. But it’s just that idea. You’ve got to have your cup full to be able to really do that.

Brian Classen (43:50):
It’s a great word. I guess we just encourage it. Just keep on the fight, right? It’s the consistency. I know especially if trust has been broken, you feel like, I hear a series like this and I’m going to try these things. And you’re kind of like, “Pastor, I’ve been doing this for three weeks now and they’re not responding.” And you want to say, “Well, they’re just seeing if it’s real or not.” It’s going to take some weeks and months and sometimes years, depending on where it is. So just staying strong in your faith and strong and committed to what you’re doing. The consistency there makes such a difference.

Brian Classen (44:22):
Well, that’s week one. Relationships, right? What every man wants, what every woman wants. The reality is, God has created us such unique and yet incredibly complex creatures. And there’s so much to us in these relationships. But the great part is, we get to do this together. The great part is, it’s a learning process. And as we can grow together in our marriages, they do become richer 10 years in and 15 years and 20 years and on we go. And the great hope is we really will find that person that we really can do life together and have the marriage we’ve always dreamed of and the marriage we’ve always wanted.

Brian Classen (44:59):
But it doesn’t happen accidentally. It happens by work and effort. Some good days and some bad days. But just showing up each time. Well, thanks for joining us this week. I encourage you, a couple things you can go with this is just try to figure out, can you identify what your love language is? Can you identify the love language of your significant other? Find out what that is. Talk about it. And find one way to express that on a regular area. And you’ll be amazed that if you’ll take the initiative, that they will respond if you will initiate first. And so have the courage. Have the humility. Have some fun with this.

Brian Classen (45:32):
This is the great part. This is why you got married in the first place. This was your best friend who you enjoyed just being with and you couldn’t be away. And so rekindle that part. And you’ll see such a difference. Our next podcast, we’re going to talk about really the intimacy of that rekindling, talking a little bit about how our sexual integrity and our sexual intimacy really impacts our relationships. And so we want to invite you to come back for that podcast. Parents, this one’s going to be a little more geared towards if you are married. So we’re going to talk a little more candidly on that topic. Just use your discretion for our second week of the podcast. But welcome to week one of Off the Record.