Off The Record | Episode #2 Show Notes

Brian Classen - February 11, 2022

Brian Classen:
Well, welcome to another episode of Off the Record, a candid, casual conversation about life, culture, and church. And today, on episode two, we’re continuing in our series from our series on mixtapes, love, sex, and marriage. And today, I’m joined by a couple of good friends and great folks at our church, Beth and Wally Hollis, and thanks for joining us.

Beth Hollis:
Absolutely.

Brian Classen:
They are both certified sex therapists, and so I think really are going to help us today to have a really candid conversation about what sexuality means, and really in the context of what that means in our marriages, and how do we protect ourselves to that point. And so, I just encourage you today, as we jump into this content, parents or whoever, we’re going to be talking a little bit more helpful, but a little more explicit about some things, and so I encourage you just to kind of use your discretion as the topic is going to be a little more mature as we go, but hopefully tastefully done as we go.

Brian Classen:
Well, Hollis’, you see this issue a lot in your practice. You both are counselors there at LifeBridge Counseling Center there, and maybe share with maybe some things that you are seeing, some themes as couples come in dealing with these issues, singles and married couples, and maybe a little bit, has any of that changed during this COVID time, and what things are you seeing escalating and are there… So thanks again for joining us. Thanks for jumping in and helping me on this topic. I’m so grateful not to be alone on this one.

Wally Hollis:
[crosstalk 00:01:22] Grab your hand and we’ll walk you through.

Brian Classen:
Walk me through it, yes.

Wally Hollis:
I’ll say, first of all, the reason that we even decided to become sex therapists is because, through the course of time, no offense, the church hasn’t done a great job of communicating to Christians. It is amazing the number of people that we have come in for sex therapy, when we give them an assessment, excuse me, the talks about kind of their experiences… or not really experiences, but their mindsets as they grew up, what they were exposed to, And almost two to one, anybody who comes in as a Christian, sex was dirty, good girls don’t, they were all negative messages. And I thought, “That’s so sad when it’s such a precious gift that God has given us in the context of marriage.”

Brian Classen:
I think that’s such a powerful thing. And I’m hoping a little bit, one of my goals for our time today is, because the church has put shame on this or we’ve isolated, I always go to like, “Where are people finding out content, and information, and truth on that?” So I’m hoping today to be able to do that, so thanks for being willing.

Wally Hollis:
Oh yeah, absolutely. And that’s one of the things that as we see that, we want to try to correct some of those false messages. And I think one of the biggest things we have to recognize, this is a prime area of spiritual attack, that the enemy has taken something that God created for incredible good, incredible bonding between a man and a woman, and the enemy has taken to completely pervert it. We see that no more than mostly in pornography use, where people go, “Well, this is okay, we can invite that third, fourth, 10th, 100th person into our bedroom.” It does nothing but hurt a couple in that regard, but society makes it, “Oh, it’s okay. This is natural. This is normal.” And so that’s one area that we’ve seen just grow so much more, especially in the COVID years because so many people were locked down, locked in, and if they didn’t have a good relationship in their marriage, they were seeking it elsewhere. Yeah, right.

Brian Classen:
That’s good. We’ll come back and talk a little bit about that one, that’s great. What are maybe a couple other things that you’ve been seeing a little bit more regular in your practice?

Beth Hollis:
Well, as far as the women go, if they’ve been raised in the church or with a faith system, they’re often told good girls don’t want it, good girls will not enjoy it, good girls stay pure in everything, and that the good boy will know everything about your body as a female, which they don’t, they do not. And then yet, so a good girl doesn’t want sex, but the moment she gets married, she is supposed to be a good wife who does want sex, and there’s a huge vacuum and void there.

Beth Hollis:
And where do they learn it? Most moms who should or could teach it, don’t, they’re very embarrassed, most girlfriends lie, and they don’t know anything any better either. And I really do believe that they need to learn themselves, their value, first and foremost. And I really do believe if men and women understand their value, the women will know that they are worth waiting for and the men will know as they strive for that integrity, that they won’t settle for anything less either. And that would protect a lot of families, just in general.

Brian Classen:
Yeah. I think the challenge when it really comes to our sexuality, even sex in the context of marriage, we bring so much baggage into the bedroom just from our past, emotional, physical, mismessages, that it’s no wonder we struggle in this way, and it’s no wonder, because we don’t talk about it and yet, we’re both struggling to figure out what it is, and how do we… we don’t even know where to begin. And so, those conversations, like you say, I think are some of the hardest conversations to have in a marriage relationship because there’s a vulnerability there that comes with that. How about maybe one more thing, Wally, that you kind of have been seeing in terms of folks coming in?

Wally Hollis:
Just the disconnect that it can bring. Again, a gift that is supposed to be a wonderful thing for a couple, they find it difficult to talk about. One of our first questions is always, “How comfortable are you talking about this as a married couple?” And I would say, nine times out of 10, 95 out of 100, that the answer is, “Not really.” Well, how can you share your desires, your expectations? Unmet expectations goes hand in hand with that, because we build up this idea of what it’s supposed to look like and be. And what if it’s not, especially if we’ve been exposed to pornography movies? I mean, gosh, all you have to do is go down virtually in a cable channel or series, right?

Brian Classen:
Yeah.

Wally Hollis:
There’s illustrations of what it’s supposed to be and they’re so often false in terms of reality. But we have these expectations… Oops, sorry, we have these expectations that are unmet and that then creates dissension. And we don’t talk about it and it gets worse, those types of things. So there’s more and more of that all the time.

Brian Classen:
So it starts it, unexpressed expectations lead to unmet expectations. So let’s maybe start there, how have you helped couples even get to that point of being able to talk about this in a non-threatening way? What have been some things that you’ve found that’s been helpful?

Wally Hollis:
From my perspective, and I’ll speak more specifically as I’ve worked with the guys, is get comfortable with your sexuality. You’re not a sexual giant, you don’t know it all, but you are a man and so be comfortable with what it means to be a man. Man, understand that God built you with a visual attraction toward women, that’s okay, that’s not a sin. I love the verse where it says about Jesus that he was tempted in all ways as a man, but did not sin. That’s that line to say, “I can see a pretty woman, but I’m not going to cross that line and let that manufacture then into lust and action that goes beyond it.” But don’t be ashamed that you can look at a woman and find her beautiful, you have to have your healthy boundaries. And so, I have found that when get there, when they go, “Okay, I can be comfortable with who I am as a man and I don’t have to be ashamed of my sexuality,” that they then can approach their relationship with their wife from a much healthier perspective, so that’s just one area.

Brian Classen:
How about you, Beth, what have you found that have just been ways to maybe help even begin to have that conversation?

Beth Hollis:
Well, I think a lot of women need to see their husband actually are more than just a sex drive. I think they believe that all he ever wants to do, if he even touches me on the shoulder or something, all of a sudden, he wants it. And women want the connection through verbalization and yet they shut down talking often. And then they start, in this pattern in their marriages, of thinking, “Well, if I say this, it’s going to hurt his feelings.” Or, “If I do that, I’m his mother.” Maybe he said, “Don’t be my mother. You’re just like my mother,” and the emasculation starts, and the detaching starts, she doesn’t get her needs met through just a connection.

Beth Hollis:
I see women sabotaging a lot. They may not believe their husband when they say, “You’re beautiful,” or, “I love you.” They are thinking to themselves, “Because they tell me this, they just want sex and I’m tired at the end of the day.” Or, “I should be more than that.” And so, I think there’s some sabotage that couples can do together but I also think that we have been fed this idea that that’s all a man is, is provider of the paycheck and the sex drive. And women have a sex drive too, we just don’t often think we’re allowed to act on it, we’re supposed to be those good girls again.

Brian Classen:
Yeah. So we end up in these really unhealthy cycles.

Beth Hollis:
Yeah, very much so.

Brian Classen:
So Wally, what would you say, I’m trying to be really practical here, what’s the one… So my wife and I are out on a date night, and we just have some time to kind of talk. What’s a safe and easy, maybe even question that opens up this area to say, “I love you.” We’re in church, we’re talking about the series, is there anything in our relationship? What’s a safe way to go about that?

Wally Hollis:
That’s a good question, Brian. We need to sit down on the couch and talk about this a little bit. No, I think it is exactly that. It’s what you almost stated right there, is, “How can we talk about this safely?” It’s an idea for creating. We deal a lot with what I would call creating emotional safety. And again, this is a subject where it often doesn’t exist, and so if we can use questions like that, “Sweetheart, I love you. I want our relationship to be the best it can. As Christians, we want to be honoring in everything that we do, but I do want there to be an openness of discussion that we can have.”

Wally Hollis:
I would say, if you make it about self, “Is there anything that I can do, that is going to make you feel safer? Is there anything that I need to stop, that also is going to make you feel safe?” Stuff that is going to open the door to the way the two of us communicate, because anytime we make it about you do this, you don’t do this, all the you statements, that’s always going to put up a barrier. But if we make it about I… we use an illustration in our counseling that once upon a time when Beth, and if people know Beth, they know she’s direct, and straightforward, and stuff like that, that we were having a discussion and she going along her very direct way-

Beth Hollis:
My tone was getting sharp and authoritative.

Wally Hollis:
And so, I said, “Honey, I could hear you better if you would soften your tone.” And so, I wasn’t saying, “Soften your fricking tone, would you?” I was saying, “I could hear you better.” Well, she wanted to be heard.

Beth Hollis:
It was brilliant. It was brilliant.

Wally Hollis:
So when we make it about the I statements, and that’s about being narcissistic, and selfish, and all that, it’s just saying, “I’m going to bear responsibility for what I can do rather than telling you what you have to do, open the door.”

Brian Classen:
Yeah. I think that’s such a great word. And I think for men, because our wives are trying to connect emotionally, which leads to that physical connection, it’s even our willingness to the vulnerability, to the question, I think we need to be surprised what that would open up in terms of just intimacy. “I want to serve you better. I want this to be all we wanted to be, is there anything that I can do to be helpful?” It’s an empowering and kind of there.

Wally Hollis:
If I could just read that point on the service, that I thank you for saying that, because if we can create a mindset of being a servant lover, we think of sex so often as take, take, take, take, take, but if we can focus on, “I want to meet my spouse’s needs in humility, in service,” relationships can be so much better.

Beth Hollis:
And when it’s mutual as it basically says, Ephesians 5:21, submitting to one another, then nobody is left out, not one person’s doing all of the work in the bedroom, you’re both enjoying it. So I think that that’s… I think women, if they just really knew how much the heart of a man, that the man wants to please them, and how much they want to be seen as a man of valor and goodness, that they really do want their wives to see them as that guy, I think wives might have a whole different view of their husbands, which I think would help.

Brian Classen:
Yeah. No, I think you’re exactly right. We talked about that a little bit in this service on Sunday, it’s that 1st Corinthians, seven, that a husband should give to his wife and a wife should give herself to her husband, so it’s a mutual thing. We talked about earlier, I think one of the things that has really distorted and perverted this wonderful gift of our sex and our sexuality has been the issue of porn. And you’d mentioned that you continue to see this rise, that certainly would be my experience that I think COVID just continued to bring to the light, this issue has been. As a therapist, what are some of the dangers? And we tend to think porn is a secret sin we do ourselves, it doesn’t bother anybody else, but what are you seeing if some of the impact that has in marriage?

Wally Hollis:
I sort of implied that a little bit of really the comparison, these are airbrushed models, whether men or women to be perfect, it’s the ultimate fantasy type thing. Can we, as the normal, everyday people measure up to that? Of course not. And yet we’d start believing, “Well, we should.” And then there’s the aspect of even what does the timing of sex look like? Sometimes you see those movies, and forgive me if we’re being a little graphic, that they’re just having sex, they’re pumping away, and doing stuff, and going on for 10, 15, 20 minutes, and you’re thinking, “That’s the way it’s got to be.” Well, scientifically, the averages, guys go from ready to done in four minutes or less, for some guys [crosstalk 00:13:42]-

Beth Hollis:
And that could be long.

Wally Hollis:
And the four minutes might be long for some, yeah. And you can-

Brian Classen:
So it creates this false expectation.

Beth Hollis:
No, absolutely.

Brian Classen:
I would say the challenge of porn is it redefines what beauty looks like, and so we have this unrealistic picture and we can’t figure out why our wives are insecure. Why would I want to engage in this intimate thing and expose myself when I know I’m not matching up to what I perceive that you’re thinking about? And I think my encouragement maybe would be to wives, be reminded that a man doesn’t need the perfection of the body to enjoy time together, it’s kind of how God has wired us. And so, this idea that if I looked 10 times better, our sex life would be fantastic and we’d be so connected. I’d just say if that was the truth, we’d never have divorces in Hollywood-

Wally Hollis:
Amen.

Beth Hollis:
Amen, that’s right.

Brian Classen:
… Because it’s this missed thing that the beauty creates the connection. And so, I do say for our men, if you’re not careful though, you are redefining beauty, and it’s a danger that way. And then I think as you mentioned, it was just the expectation. It’s no wonder we’re struggling in the bedroom if I watch TV and think we’re going to roll from 10 o’clock at night to six in the morning until room service comes in, and then I’m in the opposite world and I’m living like… Okay, I feel as a man, you feel inferior, as a woman, you have this disappointment that we weren’t laying together in the silk blankets, sharing breakfast and all of these things. And you’re like, “This is nothing like that.” And so, we’ve created this false narrative that there’s no way to live up to. And so, what should be this connecting thing becomes an act that’s just defeating. I’m just discouraged and I feel inadequate visually, performance-wise, and all.

Wally Hollis:
The discontent-

Brian Classen:
The discontent.

Wally Hollis:
There should be more, this isn’t the fantasy I had. Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Classen:
And would you say that’s also the danger, even in context of married couples when they’re using porn even to begin to get their own relationship going or add some spice, and again, we’re bringing in that outside stimulus that just continues to break away at the very fabric.

Wally Hollis:
There’s a concept that we teach, is that sex in a marriage is to be three things, loving, healthy, and mutual. Now, some people could say, “Hey, if we’re both agreeing that watching this porn is okay for us as a married couple to get going,” you could say, “Well, it is mutual,” but they’re violating the principle that the marriage bed is to be sacred. You’re inviting a third person in. I would hope that none of those couples would ever invite in a third, and yet, sadly, we see that happening way more than you would believe, even in Christian marriages, that third partner, but even in the pornography sense. When you’re watching it, even together, you’re inviting a third person and all those other things, the comparison and so forth that we’re talking about.

Brian Classen:
And isn’t that the danger of all of our section, it’s progressive, right?

Beth Hollis:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brian Classen:
So pornography, it’s just progressive. And so, what, at one point, created these neurons clicking in my head, now, takes a little bit more, just takes a little bit more, it takes a little bit more, and then, again, in the context of marriage and being married 30, 40, 50 years, you’re creating these bad systems.

Wally Hollis:
Even scientifically, there’s something in that in the fact that God wonderfully created us with pleasure systems from this. I mean, think of the dopamine. And so he created it sexually one on one, that’s what we can handle and enjoy. When we look at porn, especially sometimes if you’re just looking at something on the computer, 100 clicks might be 100 different images. Your brain is saying, “I’m having sex with 100 different people.” And so, the brain’s working overtime for that dopamine, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, that’s what you’re talking about, then it craves more because it’s not being satisfied and we’re hurting ourselves in doing that, just even biologically.

Brian Classen:
Yeah.

Beth Hollis:
Yeah.

Brian Classen:
The great word is there’s hope, and there’s freedom in this, but it’s going to take some work. And so, I just encourage even if you’re listening to us today and you’re saying, “That’s a little bit of my story, I’ve created these habits and patterns, why bother to change now?” And boy, in the same way that your mind gets retooled one way and rewired, you can unwire it the other way, to the grace of God, forgiveness, and some really disciplined and new patterns. And so, I just say to our couples, “That’s the beauty, so appreciate your ministry to couples, that’s the power of this.”

Brian Classen:
There are some things, you can’t always solve this on your own, you’re going to need some outside help. If you could fix it on your own, you would’ve fixed it when you were 16, 18, or 22, when carrying it in. So just the encouragement of there’s no shame here, there’s no scarlet letters. As I kind of said Sunday, we’re broken people in need of God’s redemptive love especially in area of our sexuality. So porn, yeah, so true. Beth, share a little bit statistically, I mean, how this is evolving and growing younger ages, what are some things you have seen there?

Beth Hollis:
At least what I’ve read and researched, the average age of porn onset these days in the United States is 10. And we actually have had clients in the past where they’ve had kindergartner kiddos that were acting out with their brothers or sisters and it was traced to a fifth grader with a phone in the little boys’ room at an elementary school. So we have to realize that a lot of time, boys and girls are subjected to this stuff that they are so not ready for at a very, very early age. And then we become adolescents, which I have a view of 16-year-olds who are two-year-old brains with car keys, because that’s about where our brains are. They’re huge sponges still, we’re not done growing, we don’t have our judgment seat in yet, and yet that’s when most people start dating and wanting to go further.

Beth Hollis:
Something else that happens with porn and women, most of the women that I speak with are very affected. They take it personally that, “Gee, if I was good enough, skinny enough, had big enough breasts, wanted him more, did better in the bedroom, he wouldn’t use porn, and I have to tell him.” Tell that to the 10-year-old that’s sitting there because that’s where he started it, maybe 14, and he’s got a habit which might be addictive.

Beth Hollis:
The other thing that I don’t think a lot of people realize is porn creates sexual dysfunction. Where once upon a time we might expect a 40 or 50-year-old man, about 70-80% of them will have some dysfunction sexually in their lifespan. It’s normal, it’s expected, there’s help for that. What we are now seeing, I think Wally had a client as young as 17, who could no longer perform because sex, when it is… And one author calls it narcissistic sex because you’re having it just with yourself, a man is training his penis for a hand and that is not a woman. And then he’s not going to be able to perform and you want to talk about bringing shame into the bedroom, holy moly, now we’ve got a woman that doesn’t think she’s good enough, we have a man that cannot perform, and now we’ve got two silent married partners, with a huge literal elephant in the room that needs help.

Brian Classen:
Yeah, that’s a great word and good reminder where reality is in so many things. And it’s growing too, this idea of porn is not simply a male thing-

Beth Hollis:
No.

Brian Classen:
The number of women that are finding security, release, control, is a growing thing, so pretty significant. So we’ve got that, that’s a factor, but they’re just also factors of seasons of life, hormonal changes. I think one of the challenges is that we forget that it’s always in seasons. And so, our sex drives changes during different seasons of life, there’s those… What are just some of the contributors, if I’m in a married relationship right now, and I’m just feeling like my husband who used to be so excited, now seems slightly disinterested, what’s wrong with me? Or my wife, it was great and now we’ve just had these kids and there’s nothing. So help us maybe just get a little understanding, what are some of the factors that are leading to that that are outside of just our own selves?

Wally Hollis:
I think that the thing that’s interesting, when people talk about sex therapy, they automatically, and believe it or not, I actually just finally saw the movie, but Meet the Fockers where they’re sex therapists and they’re just, Dustin Hoffman and-

Beth Hollis:
Weird sex therapists.

Wally Hollis:
Barbra Streisand, just all over the place. And it’s like, “That’s not what it is guys.” Because about 80% of the time in sex therapy, we don’t talk about sex. We talk about the relationship, we talk about the connection, we talk about, as I indicated earlier, the emotional safety. And that comes up, really, in the seasons of life. Because when you’re 50, 60, 70, 80, I mean, it’s going to vary, but you’re not going to have the same virility that you do when you’re a teen or 20 year old. When people talk, “Oh, well guys, they think about it all the time.” Well, when you’re 18-20, yeah, you kind of are. But when you get later on in life, you’re really not, it doesn’t make it any less important. So it’s the question, what’s it going to look like?

Wally Hollis:
Again, maybe those unspoken, unmet expectations, if we nurture and in our therapy, we try to do this to people. Let’s nurture the connection, the emotional, the spiritual, as well as the physical connection so that we understand we are not the same people, we change. Can we flex with that change in order to say, “This is a different version of me, it’s not a worse version? Hopefully, it’s a better version because I’ve matured and grown.”

Wally Hollis:
And so, I think it’s that, are we flexible? We always ask clients, “Are you changeable? Are you teachable? Are you flexible?” Man, when you get at older, and that’s one thing that’s kind of cool about being a sex therapist at 65, is that I can talk to all these young people who think they know it all and go, “Okay, I got a few things here to tell you, I’ve lived a few years, you haven’t. Let me give you the truth on this.” And fortunately, most of the people are willing to listen.

Wally Hollis:
But we got to realize there are those different changes. And it’s mostly about the openness and the communication, in terms of what’s going on, even in bed so that you have an idea of, “This isn’t me rejecting you, this isn’t you rejecting me, this isn’t…” Like that whole thing about erectile dysfunction or something, if a guy’s unable to ‘perform’, doesn’t mean that there can’t be a dynamic, loving relationship in bed. They can still be very physical, very intimate, and it doesn’t have to be that, forgive the phrase, but we refer to it often as “it’s not about the coming, it’s about the being.” When we are together and sharing and in celebrating that intimacy, that’s ageless, right?

Brian Classen:
Yeah, that’s good so. So we have that relational dynamic, it’s just going to take some conversation, but they’re also just physical changes. And so, I just encourage you if you’re listening today and you’re like, “I’m really struggling to feel any sense of a sex driver interest,” especially for women. All these hormones, I would see a physician to really say, “You may just have some hormone levels that are out of whack and that you just need some help getting stabilized in this season.”

Brian Classen:
There are some external things or the same with men, seek some help on that, there are some physical things, there’s just pressures, stresses at jobs that go through different things, but communication, in the absence of that communication, we tend to fill the void with our insecurity. It’s me, if I was this, they would be that. In reality, you may have a spouse who so desires that, there just are some physical things going on. And so, I would just see somebody sooner than later. These things don’t away, they tend not to just get better over time. We really got to be honest enough to just talk, and share, and again, I just would say to you, “Man, you will be amazed, I think the intimacy you build in that relationship with the honesty.”

Brian Classen:
Absolutely, that helps so much. A lot of good stuff to think about. Tell me a little bit, Beth, as you kind of see, for men and women, the difference on the visual part and for women kind of the emotionally, what starts that attractionary moments? How are men and women different in there, share a little bit about how you see that?

Beth Hollis:
Well, that’s a huge topic. The women that I talk to, I find it very sad on one hand and for the men listening that have daughters, I think this is really important to recognize, the average age, the last time any of my clients, regardless of their early 20-year-olds or 60-year-olds, felt completely loved and accepted just for their being is six. That’s the last time they can remember feeling loved. Now, a lot of things can happen in the middle of that. After that, they usually start performing, then they get the good grades, if they dress nice, if they’re a good girl, if they’re a pretty girl, if they have their manners, they get accolades or rewarded for that. So they start doing this performance. They also learn in adolescence, if they dress a certain way, maybe provocatively… I’m even seeing it, I call them prostatots, they’re the two-year-olds that have lipstick on, but their parents are thinking or themselves, “If I want the attention to validate myself again, to think that I’m worthy, I have to show cleavage, or really short skirts, or dress provocatively.” But then again, once we’re married that goes away.

Beth Hollis:
It’s kind of this one and done. We have heard this once in a premarital class we taught in Denver and this woman said, “I don’t want to be the one and done, W-O-N, he won me, now he’s done taking care of himself, now he’s going to belch and itch things weirdly and do stuff in public I don’t like.” And he stood up, her fiance said, “Well, same here. I don’t want you to look like a bag lady in 10 weeks either.” And I think we do forget to keep trying. And I think when we start getting in that marital drift of, we don’t care, we’re telling our spouse they don’t matter, they’re no longer the first for us. I wanted to also mention trauma, there’s an awful lot of men and women, as boys and girls when they were children, that were sexually abused and they’ve got to do the work. I implore them to do the work before they get married because it will show up in the bedroom. It absolutely will and-

Wally Hollis:
And, oh-

Beth Hollis:
Yeah, go ahead.

Wally Hollis:
I just want to say, when we think of the intimacy level on a very basic level, men and women are different, oh, go figure. Now, society is trying to legislate that out of existence, but women are women, men or men, right?

Beth Hollis:
Yeah.

Wally Hollis:
How do we respond to intimacy? Men in general, want physical, they want sex. What do women want?

Beth Hollis:
We want to talk first-

Wally Hollis:
They want to talk.

Beth Hollis:
We want to know we’re validated, we want to know we have your full attention and that we’ve talked about something meaningful, not just the latest score of UK or-

Wally Hollis:
Oh, come on, that can be the [crosstalk 00:28:52]-

Beth Hollis:
The latest draft pick-

Wally Hollis:
… Come on.

Beth Hollis:
Well, maybe for you, honey-

Brian Classen:
What is that difference-

Beth Hollis:
… Or whatever.

Brian Classen:
So for men that intimacy is sex, and for women, intimacy is closeness, right?

Wally Hollis:
Right.

Beth Hollis:
Yeah.

Brian Classen:
And so, for men, when we have sex, we feel connected with afterwards, that’s the power of it. Ladies need to understand, it’s not just the physical part, it’s that I emotionally feel connected to you in a powerful way. For women, the opposite, we have this emotional connection, which leads to the desire of sex and that’s the secondary part. So I think it’s understanding each other and you know too, these are generalizations. So many times we tend to want to categorize men and women and we may be in a relationship, where the wife has a much stronger sex drive than the man. And she’s feeling like, “Well, what’s wrong with me, everybody says it’s the man.” So these are general statistical averages, and each couple is uniquely different, and sometimes those roles are changed in how we do that, and that’s okay. And we need to just acknowledge-

Wally Hollis:
In fact, that part is part of the answer, to be okay with that.

Brian Classen:
Yeah.

Wally Hollis:
“Oh, I’m not fitting the role, I’m the guy, I’m supposed to be sexually charged, initiating all the time and I’m not, what’s wrong with me.” Maybe nothing wrong with you.

Brian Classen:
Obviously more issues than that to look at, but-

Wally Hollis:
Not to be so judgemental-

Brian Classen:
There’s so much pressure isn’t it, on sex?

Wally Hollis:
Oh, yeah.

Brian Classen:
This preconceived notion, “This is who we must be, this is the roles we play, this is what… And if I don’t have any of these, then something is wrong with me.” And there just needs to be a little bit of freedom to just be okay-

Wally Hollis:
What a great concept.

Brian Classen:
Sex, it’s this learning process. I always say to our young people-

Beth Hollis:
Absolutely.

Brian Classen:
I always say to our young people, “Y’all think you’re having fun, it gets better with time.” It really does.

Beth Hollis:
Yes, it does.

Brian Classen:
And in reality, it’s the one thing… I know there’s this pressure of, “I just want to make sure I’m good at sex before I find the one because women said I’m terrible at sex.”

Beth Hollis:
How would they know if they didn’t compare?

Brian Classen:
Yeah, and you also want to say, “I think it’s the one thing you’re really okay, if your spouse is not great at it. This is the fun where it’s at.” So I think we go back to, I think it’s the challenge of this series as we even talk, there is God’s perfect design for this, which is the ideal. So I say to all of our folks who are in that position to have still have remained pure, “Man, fight for this.” Because you don’t understand how that protects you in such a powerful way. The beauty, I say, often is if you have two that come into the marriage relationship that have been pure, the great part is, if all you’ve eaten is chocolate cake, you’ll love chocolate cake. It may not even be great chocolate cake, but it’s the only cake you know. The challenge is when you have this buffet and it’s like, “Well, it’s a little pecan, a little bit of this.” It’s the struggle of where we are.

Brian Classen:
We do realize though, for the vast majority of people, it’s been more than just chocolate cake as they had, but the more they can continue to focus in on one another, and give that freedom, and dismiss these other things, and do the emotional and mental work of, it’s in the mind so much, there are these images, there’s these memories that come, and I either can dwell on them or I can give them the Lord, I’ve asked for forgiveness, it’s past life, God, continue to cleanse me, and the renewing of the mind really helps on that.

Brian Classen:
And so, like you say, there’s so much work to be done, and there’s so much past hurt. My heart always goes out to those that have experienced trauma especially at a young age. So hear us as we say this, the compassionate sense of I don’t understand and I don’t know what that means to you, but I just know your heart breaks for that. And the encouragement, just as you said, Beth, it’s just, find some help. This is a heavy burden to carry alone, it will flesh itself out in the marriage context if we don’t.

Wally Hollis:
If I can add something that ties in with what you just said, and again, I want to say you did a great job on Sunday, and so many of these points. In this one, you sort of touched on a little bit there and that is that we, as Beth mentioned, we used to teach seminars, especially when we lived in Denver, and it’s nothing like having a class of 140, 150 people who are not married, this is a premarital class, we’re talking about sex, and romance, and affection, and all that stuff.

Wally Hollis:
With the full knowledge, I never would ask anybody to put their hands up, but the vast majority of them are engaged in sexual behavior. And we will utter a challenge to them to say, “How much are you willing to not have sex anymore?” And we’ll always say, “We’re not here as the morality police, we are here to say what we believe God’s best is.” But sex is sort of the great, not great bandaid, especially, and this is more directed to the unmarried, but it could be to the married too, sex often prevents us from dealing with subjects we need to deal with in the relationship.

Wally Hollis:
“We’re about to have a fight.” “Oh, I don’t want to have a fight.” “Hey, you want to go have sex?” “Well, yeah.” And then you forget about the problem for the time being but it pops up again. And so, we really encourage people that are not married, “Don’t have sex.” But this isn’t because we’re spoilsports, trying to take away your fun, it’s because we want you to have the best relationship possible. And sex is going to keep many of those things from being dealt with. And then on top of that, there’s also the challenge… I think you added something similar to this on Sunday, was, “How much are you willing to trust the Lord? He does have your best in mind.” We’re not saying it’s not hard, we’re not saying it’s not a challenge. It is the way that he made us, but we can exert that self-control, after all, it is one of the fruits of the spirit, right?

Brian Classen:
Yeah, that’s such a great word. And I think ultimately, you said that so well, if you’re in a relationship, a dating relationship or “Listen, we want to live together to make sure we’re compatible and we don’t know these things.” I think, as you said, it’s the way God has designed us. I referred to it Sunday, there’s the beer goggles and there are the sex goggles and you can’t objectively judge compatibility with somebody you’re sleeping with because God has designed it to lose objectivity in a beautiful way in the context of marriage.

Wally Hollis:
Exactly, yeah.

Brian Classen:
And so, it is that challenge. If you find yourself in that context and you think this may be the one and you really want to know, man, my challenge is, abstain from that for three months, get clarity, and then in that clarity, you’ll know. And I think you’ll know then, “Does my partner want me for or what I can give to them?” Or you said it so well, if we’re not careful, we create these patterns. So when we’re in tension, we don’t want to talk about it, “Let’s just go have sex, everything will be fine.” Or we’re bored, we don’t even know what to do, so away we go. And we’re creating these relational patterns that are going to lead into marriage and we’ve not addressed some of the issues that you really had or you’re like, “Boy, I didn’t see that.” Well, you didn’t see that because God created the wonderful thing of sex to really smooth over some of the rough spots. And so, yeah, I think that’s such a great thought.

Brian Classen:
Today, and really, in our time, part of that desire was for us to be able to really share just what is some reality to that and the power of our sexual relationships, but I’m also reminded of the amazing mystery. I’m looking forward and I have many questions for God, but this will be one of them, “God, help me to understand…” It’s why the scripture speaks so often of this idea of mutual submission to one another. But I just want to go back just to clarify and maybe bring some normalcy to what couples are experiencing, Wally, what you shared. It’s the reality of even in our sexual pleasure, that the timing, biologically, is different for the man and the woman. When she reaches that moment tends to be three or four times longer than it takes for the male. And you want to say, Lord, “Why is that?” But isn’t it true? What it is is, it’s teaching us this idea of selflessness.

Brian Classen:
I think for some, they’re the most selfish lovers because it’s about just my needs and when my needs are done, we’re done. And God in his wisdom, I think it’s crazy, it’d been a whole lot easier if we could have just biologically make all these things match up, timing-wise, but he said, “No, I’m going to give you the most sacred, and precious, and wonderful thing, but I’m going to make you work at thinking about the other more than yourself in order to experience mutual satisfaction on this.” Wally, any tips that you would give, or suggestions, or just ways for couples to maybe grapple even with that issue a little bit.

Wally Hollis:
I think what you’re saying right there is big part of it, if we can sort of get over ourselves and recognize we’re married for a reason, and that is to be witnesses to one another’s lives, to have somebody in our life who is going to get to know us, who’s going to witness us, and therefore, we want to be unselfish. Selfishness is the biggest problem in marriage overall and continues on into the sexual relationship. So if we can adopt that attitude of selflessness, that said… And I know a lot of people could probably laugh, hearing all this, and going, “Oh, come on, this isn’t what sex is about.” No, really, if I can have, as my goal sexually, to pleasure my wife, to see her come into her fullness as a woman, both just as a woman generally, as a sexual being, as a woman, in that she is fulfilled in that, you know what, God’s going to take care of me.

Wally Hollis:
I mean, let’s face it in that regard, but if I have the focus on, “This is about me, this is about me, this is about me getting pleasure, this is about me being fulfilled, this is about all this.” gosh, the pressure that puts on the spouse, and I know that Beth could say all the same things from a woman’s perspective, if it’s always about selfish taking, taking, taking, and not giving, the relationship can’t help. Just as it does in regular life. Hence why you said, Ephesians 5:21 submitting to one another, why? Out of reverence for the Lord. It is service.

Brian Classen:
Beth, what suggestions or advice would you give to women who sometimes they hear this and it’s like, “I feel like sex is a chore right now, after doing all the chores, it’s just one more thing.” And for them, the joy way of it has left a little bit, help us think about that a little bit.

Beth Hollis:
I have to say, it consistently comes back to value. So many women get their value from what other people think of them, and so they become these little worker bees, these little pleaser bees, and they pour into everybody else. And we women are wonderful magnifiers, you give us a little, we’ll take it and make it a lot. At the same time, if we don’t value ourselves, first and foremost as not just pleasure givers, but pleasure takers, I just don’t see a lot of women really thinking that they themselves are still sexual. They were when they were dating because they thought they were going to lose the boy if they didn’t do something and then, “Well, I’ve got to fulfill it to my husband.” And they denounce themselves constantly. And if they would understand that, well, if they’re stressed, sex is a great releaser. If they like to work out, “Hey ladies, it burns 200 calories on your back.” And it is a wonderful way to connect and release that dopamine. And I like it better than jogging because jogging is just way too much effort.

Beth Hollis:
But the piece there is for them to realize too, they will have, during times of the month, during seasons of life and ebb and of flow. There’s going to be times when you just really want a lot of it, there may be times when you’d rather read a good book, maybe for months on end. And sometimes we do need to give our husbands permission just to enjoy us and not make it about us somehow performing. One other thing too that I think a lot of women denounce, is the reward sex, where they are watching their husbands, they’re judging his impact, “Oh, did he do the laundry? Did he help with the kids? Did he help me a little bit? Did he take out the trash? Oh, okay, I suppose he needs.” And that becomes duty booty and that’s not fun at all. “I’ll reward him with this.” And once again, they’re denouncing their value as an integral part of a mutual relationship.

Beth Hollis:
And I think if they would just enjoy it, as far as enjoy themselves, understanding we have pleasure points that have nothing to do with making babies, and we can enjoy it more if we understand we deserve it. And that’s a piece that I don’t think women even think about. Do they deserve sex with their husbands? I think they all think that “Well, if he’s earned it, I’ll give it to him.” But again, HGTV, husband, what is it going to be, seriously?

Wally Hollis:
One of the other things we really like to emphasize is that we want men to initiate romance. A woman is really built to be adored, to be-

Beth Hollis:
Beloved.

Wally Hollis:
Beloved, all those types of things, to be appreciated and so, forth. And typically, guys are pretty poor at that because they’re just thinking, “Hey, it’s about sex.” No, if you can initiate romance towards your wives, find out what that means to her, it’s not always just chocolates and flowers, it might be something else. And we actually encourage the women to be the initiators of the sexual behavior. First of all, in general, if a woman initiates sex, she’s got about a 90% chance of success.

Beth Hollis:
95, 98, 99.

Wally Hollis:
Yeah, if a man initiates sex, 50/50. And that’s not to demean women, please women if you’re hearing don’t take it that way, it’s the way we’re wired. So that if a man is romancing, as Beth said, women multiply, that if a man romances and makes her feel adored, a woman is going to want to respond, in terms of that sexual initiation, it’s a win-win.

Beth Hollis:
In fact, romance is so important, there’s an entire book written about it. There’s not a Bible book on money, or how to raise your kids, or how to deal with your in-laws, there’s chapters in books about that, but there’s an entire book about romance. And the more we’ve studied the Song of Songs, it shows the man was wooing, always adoring, and then she invites him literally and figuratively into her home, into her body. And I think that women do need to initiate a little bit more. I promise you, men will be smiling a lot more if that happened.

Brian Classen:
It’s that mutual thing, back and forth as we go through that?

Beth Hollis:
Yes, absolutely.

Brian Classen:
Well, good stuff, thanks for sharing a little bit about that. We’ve opened it up for questions. And again, if you go to lexcity.info, there’s a place that you can submit questions over this topic, and we’re going to continue with another podcast related to relationships next week and encourage you to do that. We got a couple of questions that came in, Wally, I’ve got you here. Some of these we’re going to hit this week and some others that we will talk about in the next week as we continue on this. Would you have just a practical way, how do I get over sexual betrayal? So all that we’ve been talking about is just the vulnerability and intimacy of this. And now, something that has been so… at a level, even different than porn because it has a deeper cut, in different ways. Just very practically, how do I work through that? And how do I get to a point of even wanting to work through that?

Wally Hollis:
That’s a tough one for a lot of people, and we do, as you could imagine, we get this a lot in our practice, that’s the other side of things, a lot of affairs going on. How do I get over the sense of betrayal? Oh gosh, how do I want to say this? It is understanding what it represents to me that my husband did that, it’s understanding what my value is in the Lord. It could be the woman having the affair, I shouldn’t make it just one way, it does happen in both directions. So I’ll take it from that perspective as a man if I was in that to say, “What does this represent to me? What does this make me believe about myself? Where am I at with the Lord? Can I see my partner as someone who is fallible and human? Am I building up a case against them that says, “That that hurt me so much, there’s no chance to come back from?” Or is redemption there?

Wally Hollis:
First of all, do I want to treat my spouse any differently than the way God treated me? I’m deserving of hell based on my life of sin and God redeems me. Can I have a spirit of redemption toward my wife? Not like I’m any better than her if she were the one having the affair, but to be able to say, “Am I willing to look at what the relationship is about? What about me, do I see that person in a different light? They are terrible, awful, no-good, very bad person,” or, “They messed up.” What’s at play. And as we often do with those couples, we say, “What was going on a year ago, two years ago? What started bringing the cracks to the foundation that you were even open for that type of affair? So to that person who’s been betrayed, we would go to the partner if they’re willing to make a work and say, “What was going on, that opened you up to the vulnerability to somebody else?” So those are just a few of the things we like, it’s a huge topic.

Brian Classen:
It’s a big topic and a really deep one. I think the encouragement is, there’s hope for that.

Wally Hollis:
Oh, absolutely.

Brian Classen:
We’ve got a church who are full of couples who have walked through that, which I think has got to be one of the darkest valleys you could walk through, but God has redeemed that, it’s not without pain, it is not without scars and consequences. And there had to be boundaries, there had to be trust built back over time and all of that’s happened, but we’ve seen stories of redemptive marriage restored. So my one is just don’t lose hope. I know it feels like this is the end of everything, and God can redeem that through a lot of work. Again, that’s where I would go and even if the one spouse doesn’t want to go to counseling and help, I would go because there’s some wounding internally that you got to kind of… you got to get there, so don’t get isolated along that one.

Beth Hollis:
Absolutely, I would just like to interject that nothing will get healed or redeemed without humility.

Brian Classen:
Right. That’s good.

Beth Hollis:
For both the offender and the betrayed, because it can take a place of pride, that the betrayed feels elevated, they didn’t sin so badly, and it can be a very deep place of shame for the betrayer. I love this, I think it was C.S. Lewis who said, “Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but it’s thinking about yourself less.” And when two hearts are softened, the Lord can do anything.

Wally Hollis:
Absolutely.

Brian Classen:
Yeah, that’s a great word. Well, we mentioned a little bit about, I think today, one of my takeaways from our time together has been, again, unexpressed expectations lead to unmet expectations and having probably the most difficult and awkward conversation about the topic of sex with your spouse is so valuable because it gives permission to share. You don’t grow up knowing about this. You got that biology figured out, but you don’t have the emotional connection, and you don’t know every couple’s different, every spouse is different, and what brings pleasure, and what doesn’t. You can assume something, in reality, and it’s not an enjoyable experience. If you’re thinking, “They’ll figure it out.” Ladies, I’ll just tell you this as a man, if you think we’re going to figure it out on our own, you’re wrong. So communicate, help us in that. We really desire to please you.

Brian Classen:
And a lot of times we’re doing it out of ignorance or what we think that we know. We’re going to put the link here, you’ve created a little thing called the marital intimacy test, which was just a few questions not even related with sex, it’s just places to start the conversation. We’re going to put a link into that on this podcast and that may be a fun thing for you to download and at least start the conversation as we go.

Brian Classen:
Well, thanks today for joining us, I think on an important topic. I just want to say, your passion, I love you enough and I want God’s best for you, that we’re willing to have these conversations that make me really red, and really sweat, and uncomfortable, but I’m just convinced this, if we let the world tell us what truth is, we’re going to miss it. God designed sex and God said it was good.

Beth Hollis:
That’s right.

Brian Classen:
God created some parameters and boundaries in our life, not to steal our joy, but to protect your heart. And so, today just be reminded that your father wants to protect your heart, where there has been woundedness and brokenness, don’t suffer in isolation.

Beth Hollis:
Right, oh, yeah.

Brian Classen:
Talk, be open, be vulnerable, trust, intimacy is built out of that context. And the great part is, it’s pretty awesome and it’s a great thing when it’s done in God’s way. And it’s one of the wonderful things in life that gets better through time and years together.

Beth Hollis:
Yes, we’re testaments to that.

Brian Classen:
There you go-

Beth Hollis:
We’re old.

Brian Classen:
So keep fighting for it, and we’re excited. So thanks again for joining us today on Off the Record, we’ll look forward to connecting with you next time. Again, Beth and Wally Hollis and their counseling practice is LifeBridge. And if they can be a resource to you and help, they would love to be able to do that.

Wally Hollis:
Absolutely.

Brian Classen:
Once again, we’ll put a link for that at the bottom of our podcast, okay.

Wally Hollis:
Thanks for having us.

Brian Classen:
You’re welcome. Thanks for being here. We look forward to seeing you next time on Off the Record.