Off The Record | Episode #3 Show Notes
RECONNECTED: MOVING FROM ROOMMATES TO SOULMATES IN MARRIAGE
Brian Classen:
Hey. Well, welcome to another episode of Off The Record, a candid, casual conversation about life, culture and church. And today, we’re continuing on our conversation through our series called Mix Tapes, dealing with relationships and sex and marriage, and all the things included with that.
Brian Classen:
And Sunday, we really set the context for where we want to spend some time in today’s conversation, this area of connecting and reconnecting in the context of our relationships. And the passage, I think is one of the greatest little verses in the Bible that we sometimes don’t think about, especially in the area of relationships, but again, Song of Solomon, and it’s Solomon, his fiance, and they’re about to become married. And she says she has this request of Solomon’s.
Brian Classen:
Song of Solomon chapter two, verse 15, it simply says this, her request is, “Catch the foxes for us, the little foxes that spoil the vineyards, for our vineyards are in blossom.” And it seems just like a beautiful, poetic little verse, but boy, the depth of what’s here. And here’s really what she’s saying. I think the great reminder and warning for us in context of our relationship, she says, “Boy, the vineyards are in blossom. Everything around looks great. It looks beautiful on the outside. The facade is set. We have our Instagram pictures and all is good.” But she says to Solomon, her future husband, “Solomon, I need you to catch the foxes, these little foxes.”
Brian Classen:
Somewhere in the midst of this beautiful picture, she has the inside of seeing this little 15 inch ball of fur running around the vineyards. And she knows this about little foxes, as cute as they are, the problem with them is they tend to dig at the very root system of these vineyards that are there and at the very root of the plant. And the challenge of that is that it doesn’t expose itself right away, but it exposes itself in seasons when there is drought and storm, and difficulty, then the unhealth of the root system becomes exposed all because these little foxes, which didn’t seem like a big deal, had really began to tear away at the very fabric of the relationship.
Brian Classen:
And she says this to Solomon, “Solomon,” I love how she said, “I’m not worried about the big bears. I’m not worried about the giants in the land and the enemies are there. I know it’s these little things that if we don’t deal with are going to be the things that tear away our foundation.”
Brian Classen:
And so, we want to spend some time today in conversation about that very thing. How do we connect and reconnect and deal with the little foxes that sneak into any relationship over a period of time? And today, I’m excited have friends with us again today, folks, I just so respect and admire, and ask them to come join us. So, we have Eric and Audra Thomas. And thank you, guys, for taking time to be with us sitting, as we continue this conversation.
Audra Thomas:
Thanks for having us. It’s an honor.
Eric Thomas:
Yes. We’re glad to be here. We’re glad to be here.
Brian Classen:
Such a great thing. And you all been married, how many years?
Audra Thomas:
This March, it will be 26 years.
Brian Classen:
26 years. And I always say, it doesn’t make us an expert on marriage, but we’ve learned a lot. And I know for Tammy and I, 31 years, we’ve done a lot of things. Well, and we’ve struggled in some areas. And today, thanks for being willing to share a little bit of your story as we have this conversation, things that we’ve learned through that. But Audra, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your family?
Audra Thomas:
Okay. Well, so we’ve been married 26 years being March. And we dated three years prior. So, almost 30 years we’ve been together. I feel like we’ve grown up together. We’ve put each other through college. We have an 18 year old. And we’re going to launch him this year. So, he graduates this year. We have twins that they’ll be 11 in March. And a little girl that will be eight this month.
Brian Classen:
Fantastic. Eric, as I thought about you guys, I thought the beauty of your family dynamics is you’ve walked through some of these seasons once and now you’re re-walking through them a second time. And I bet there are some lessons you’ve learned the first time that I hope to be able to dig in today and share. What was one of the things when you first, what attracted you to Audra, the early on in those dating years?
Eric Thomas:
Well, I was walking through the mall.
Brian Classen:
I knew there was going to be a good story here.
Eric Thomas:
There was a mall. I was walking through the mall with my friends. And I remember walking through the middle of the mall and there was a… What cards?
Audra Thomas:
It was the Hallmark store.
Eric Thomas:
There was a Hallmark store over there. And I saw her in there on a Friday night by herself. And I don’t know, there was just something about that, that drew me to her. I just saw the maturity. I don’t know. I don’t know. I think the Lord probably shined a light down on it.
Brian Classen:
And she was beautiful. That helped a little bit. You’re like, “Come on now, good looking girl in a card shop all by herself. This is my chance.”
Eric Thomas:
She has always just carried herself so well. I don’t know. There was just something about that moment.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. I think you saw, is it a depth to you in what you are? And I ask you that because I’m so reminded, it’s those little moments early on that God ignites something, that sometimes we’ve got to go back and revisit and be reminded of the power there. And I think I could speak on your behalf. I’m sure the thing that you saw there in that moment has been the thing that’s carried you through. And again, I get a chance from a distance to just watch you and your family. It’s such a joy to see just how you do life together. And so, we’re excited to talk a little bit about that.
Audra Thomas:
Thank you.
Eric Thomas:
So, how do you know that? Do you see us on Facebook and all?
Brian Classen:
Oh, I’m telling you if you want a good follow on Facebook, on social media, I just got it going on. She loves some of my eighties rap.
Eric Thomas:
One of those nudges on the [inaudible 00:05:32].
Brian Classen:
So, I’m telling you.
Audra Thomas:
He gives me a hard time about that all the time.
Brian Classen:
It’s a great follow in all seriousness, because I love to be able to… It’s one of the great ways for me in a larger church to stay connected with people.
Audra Thomas:
True.
Brian Classen:
And to watch that.
Eric Thomas:
Well, you know what we’re always doing.
Brian Classen:
Exactly right. And if you follow Tammy, you always know what we’re doing.
Audra Thomas:
Well, we have family on the West Coast. We have family in Florida. So, it does really help us to stay connected.
Eric Thomas:
It helps us stay connected.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. It is so true. The challenges sometimes in that social media world, it puts up this facade.
Audra Thomas:
Yes.
Brian Classen:
Right?
Eric Thomas:
It can.
Brian Classen:
It’s all rolling great.
Eric Thomas:
Without a doubt.
Brian Classen:
And if we’re not careful, we can fall into, I’ve got to even keep this thing going in my own mind to other people and other people look in. And I hope in the context of what we get to do today, and really during this podcast of Off The Record is to say that is part of the life. But on the back of everything, is the backside of the tapestry. Here’s the mingle. And the mess sometimes it’s there that creates these wonderful moments that we’re experiencing.
Brian Classen:
So, today, I want to talk a little bit about that, how we move from soulmates, if we’re not careful sometimes to roommates. How do we move from that moment I saw her in the Hallmark store and it was like wow, to all of a sudden, five or six years later, we’re going, “Man, that wow has left a little bit. And I’m still committed. I still love you. I don’t know if I like you every day, but I love you.” And we’re feeling almost like we’re just coexisting along those lines. As you guys look back over your years together, and almost that thirty years together, what have been some of the challenging seasons of connection?
Audra Thomas:
I think starting out in the beginning. We are very different people. Eric and I are very much opposites. And so, just learning how to live together. The first seven years, we always say, were very hard. We used to have different expectations. We were different things to the table. We have different drives. I think we lived a lot as roommates in those first seven years,
Eric Thomas:
Maybe enemies.
Audra Thomas:
True. True.
Brian Classen:
You’re blending these two together.
Eric Thomas:
It was hard. I mean, there was nothing easy about it. It was difficult. I would say we probably to the counselor probably 30 to 40 times, which is, that was 30 years ago. And I can’t say that going to a counselor anytime is something people accept. I think it’s more accepting today than it was back then even. But I think in the very beginning we took on an attitude that no matter what.
Eric Thomas:
I think I heard a professor one time just say this and it’s carried with me my entire life is, I don’t care if I have to go to a counselor a hundred times, it’ll be worth it. I want a great marriage. And that’s been helpful.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. But I hope that’s for our viewers that are watching and listening, I hope that’s a theme that you’re continuing to hear as more couples come in to say, “Listen, we’ve all been through these journeys. And at times you just need some outside help and perspective and some hope, and somebody to believe in you more than you can.”
Brian Classen:
I remember it was just this Sunday, a couple is just walking through a difficult time and the blessing to be able to say to them as they walk out the door, “Listen, I believe in you. You’re going to make this. I believe in you.” And sometimes we just need that a little bit.
Brian Classen:
Those first few years, the challenge that come with it, were there any circumstances or dynamics that you look back and say, “Boy, that was some of the triggers for us that we really had to work through?”
Eric Thomas:
Well, I think in the first year, so our first seven years, we didn’t have kids. I think it was just mainly the busyness. I tend to be a workaholic. I have a drive that I can work for morning until 11 o’clock at night. And absolutely, it’s like a high, I guess. I love it. I enjoy it. There was an actually in a time we were actually talking about this on the way over. There was a time Audra just asked me, if I could make it home by like 7:30. And that just tells you how somewhat unhealthy that was.
Eric Thomas:
But we didn’t have margin. There was no margin. I had no margin running a business. So, I think that was one of the biggest ones early on, was just the lack of margin and just how the busyness like work. You’re trying to provide. You’re trying to be that husband that provides. We’re both going through school at the time. So, there was a lot of things going on. And I think even as we were coming over, we were talking about margin was a huge area that we lacked. We were just busy overextended.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. And I think don’t you add to that is that you both are really good about what you do. You, Eric, you’re passionate. It’s not a job to you. This is a missional way that you live your life. And so, you have this emotion. If we’re not careful, we can spend a lot of energy of our emotions we give to that cause.
Eric Thomas:
That’s right.
Brian Classen:
At the neglect of the person that’s sitting there with us.
Audra Thomas:
And that’s what I think, like the little foxes are not necessarily bad things. They’re usually good things. You are providing an income. You are maintaining your home. You are X, Y, Z. But if they are taking out a portion of your life or disregard something, then you need to pay attention to what that is, because I’m not to neglect him. I’m not to put something in front of him, that’s more important because this is my first love. And so, getting back to that, what does that look like? Having four kids, three, three, and under for a while, that took a lot of our time. When you’re raising a set of twins and then another baby almost three years later to the week, that took a lot of our time.
Eric Thomas:
So, as we thought about foxes though, we thought about how crazy it was from birth to three and four years old. Like when we had those twins, you’ve heard this saying, the days are long and the years are short, baloney. The days were long. And it felt like the years were even longer. I mean, it was like that period of time, probably was some of the most, the number of days that we’re between, because the enemy is constantly trying to disconnect us.
Audra Thomas:
Yeah.
Brian Classen:
Right.
Eric Thomas:
He’s trying to Rob us of the life God has for us. And it’s hard, isn’t it, Audra?
Audra Thomas:
It is.
Eric Thomas:
It was hard.
Audra Thomas:
And he would work and come home and try to help. And you’re both exhausted. And so, you don’t have time for each other. You’ve saved the last for each other. And that’s usually, I think that’s probably common in most marriages.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. I think that is, we’re giving each other the crumbs of what’s left over, assuming the crumbs will satisfy us and fill us.
Eric Thomas:
You’re tired.
Brian Classen:
And you’re just exhausted.
Eric Thomas:
You’re tired. Your fuses are short.
Audra Thomas:
And you’re starved because you both need it. You both need the connection. You both need to be poured into. You need it deeply, but you’re starved and you have nothing to give.
Eric Thomas:
Yeah. And it goes on week after week, after week.
Brian Classen:
It’s just this slow, painful fade that comes. Thanks for sharing it. So many of our couples, I think find themselves in that very place in a time. In 2022, dual incomes, we’re raising kids, we’re running practices and businesses, and job stresses. What is a trigger for you when you hit this point saying, “Whoa, we’re losing ourselves.” And trying to think just what would be helpful for a couple who finds themselves, I think we’re at this point? What’s the trigger?
Eric Thomas:
I think people would constantly tell us it’s only going to get harder from here. I think what we were hearing in our head, the narrative we were hearing was when this is over, it’ll be better.
Brian Classen:
Yeah.
Eric Thomas:
I think we were running that scenario, “Okay. We just need to get to out of diapers.” And I think the diaper phase was over, but yet it was still either we took on more. Again, we’re constantly fighting an enemy, who’s constantly handing us sometimes great responsibilities, great opportunities. And then we latch onto those things. And before we know it, we have no margin. And then when setbacks come or when death comes, or when sickness comes.
Eric Thomas:
Here’s one, when the twins started school, I don’t even know if that I want to go here right now. But when the twins started school, we did homeschool. We did two day a week school. Audra was doing the homeschool and they were going to Veritas. And the year that they started school, Ethan was in the eighth grade. And I remember getting a report card at the end of the year, telling me that Ethan had failed algebra one, and that he would have to repeat it. And as a father, that was horrible. But I just realized we have no margin. We are spent. We are strapped.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. I think, it is that sense of just exhaustion. I remember for Tammy and I, it was that moment, I remember looking at her just like, “We’re doing everything. We’re not happy.”
Eric Thomas:
I know.
Brian Classen:
I remember that question like, “What’s going to make you happy?”
Eric Thomas:
We were serving a church, an absolute ton.
Brian Classen:
Right. And all of a sudden, it was these things that should be giving me joy, are now a chore. And the joy and the moments we had that were great, there was no shelf life. They just didn’t last as long.
Audra Thomas:
Agree.
Brian Classen:
So, for us, I found it was that moment for me when the joy was not sustaining. When I would have these little glimpses, but it wasn’t these seasons of just, it’s hard, but there’s joy in the journey.
Eric Thomas:
Those are the foxes. Right?
Brian Classen:
Those are really it, yeah. Focus on The Family does a great little survey. And I’m going to put a link there in the bottom. It’s just an assessment on intimacy for couples that take. And they talk about three areas that come up and 10 things. There’s also a little link, I’m going to put for a book there called Reconnecting by Gary Smalley. That’s really been helpful to me and those two links. But the assessment is free. Takes about 10 minutes. But they found three things that really create sometimes these little foxes that disconnect were the themes.
Brian Classen:
Number one was sexual relationships. It’s not always the easiest topic to talk about, but we wanted to spend some time on Sunday and in our podcast to talk about it. It’s one of the top threes. Either there is sexless relationships or it’s just not fulfilling, or I’m feeling used in the process. And so, that lack of intimacy is a big one. The second was conflict. Right? And we all know, and there’s no margin. And when we’re tired and fatigued, and stressed. You had children, twins. I can’t imagine. We had them one at a time. And that was enough. I can’t even begin to imagine the dynamics with twins, that bring a little bit more into that conflict comes.
Brian Classen:
And then the third one where these little foxes was communication. And I thought it was really interesting as you talk with couples, the issue is not that we’re not talking, we’re talking, but we’re just not talking about the right things that really bring us life and joy. You had all these kids in the home. I’m sure you’re like every other couple, just like us, 85% to 90% of your conversation is built around logistics, what’s the schedule, where we’re going, where the finances are, how are we doing this? And the challenge is that we’re never talking about the things that really bring us life and really connect us. Those things that are really the soul things, the things that are deep. The irony, it’s the things that when we were dating, we spent all the time on, right? We would take these walks.
Eric Thomas:
We had margin.
Brian Classen:
We had margin and space. And we were focused. Right?
Eric Thomas:
We were.
Brian Classen:
We weren’t distracted. And I cared less about the schedule. I just wanted to get to know who you were, dream these dreams together. And we got married with this plan, what we were going to do as a couple and take the world, and do all these things. But the challenge is, again, it’s just time. That little assessment may help on that. But think about that reality that if 85% to 90% of our conversations deal around schedule and finances, and logistics of life, which are important, but they are not life giving. No wonder we sometimes pull apart.
Audra Thomas:
I think that was eye opening for me. I think I started to realize that anytime we had time together, it was all about the kids or this, that, and the other. And I think we have to keep our eye on the prize. Because a lot of people just get through a marriage. They get through being married 50, 60 years and they made it. But there’s a difference of having a thriving marriage.
Eric Thomas:
That’s right.
Audra Thomas:
And I think when we finally figured that piece out, it gave us a pig to shoot for like, “This is what we want.” We don’t want to just exist. We don’t want to just get to the end of this. I actually want to be in love with him when our kids leave the house. I want to travel together. I want us to enjoy the rest of our life. And those were big questions I had. Are we going to have anything of substance when this is all done? So, I think asking those questions. And then, what does that look like? Because it’s not too late. You can still get there.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. That’s great insight, because isn’t it interesting, if you look at the statistics, one of the most vulnerable seasons of a marriage is when the kids leave the home. Why? Because 90% of our life has consisted about scheduling and logistics. And I have become a roommate with a person who once was my soulmate.
Eric Thomas:
We won’t have that problem for another 12.
Brian Classen:
You’ve got some time to keep on working.
Audra Thomas:
But I was watching it happen with a lot of people that had gone before me. And it grieved my heart, because I did not want to get to that piece and be there.
Brian Classen:
That’s so good.
Eric Thomas:
But you know what you were saying earlier, first off, you have the, what disconnects you? And then the question is, and is what reconnects you. Right? And so, I was actually thinking about this word disconnect. And really, I was actually picturing this word of disconnect when I felt disconnected. There’s a ton of voices going on there. And this is at where I really think I determine what I really believe. Do I believe God? Because when I feel disconnected, it’s sometimes I’m angry with her. I’m tired of her doing this. I’m tired of her this. I’m tired of this, or this is, “Is she ever going to change?” And it’s in those moments that I start to ask myself this question, “Do I want to stay here? Did I mess up? Did I make a mistake? Did I misunderstand God? Is this ever going to finish? Would I be happier on the other side?” And how you answer those questions. And I think that’s because those were questions, right Audra?
Audra Thomas:
Agreed. But I think you get to a point where if you’re even entertaining those, you’re already disconnected in a sense. And so, something we have learned over almost 30 years is we’ve really grown in how we communicate with one another. It’s not been great many, many times, but we are learning not to go so long when we are feeling a certain way or when we are needing something. And trust me, it’s still awkward, even after 30 years, there’s times where you know you need to go to your spouse and say, “I need a date night.” Or, “I feel empty in this way.” It still feels awkward to approach your spouse who you’ve been with for 30 years. But that’s the enemy’s ploy, is to keep you disconnected.
Audra Thomas:
And so, you have to know that on the other side of that is deep connection and you have to fight for that, whether that looks like cuddling in the bed or having physical intimacy. That might be hard to get to that point.
Eric Thomas:
It might be awkward.
Audra Thomas:
Very awkward.
Eric Thomas:
Sometimes you have to fight through that awkwardness.
Audra Thomas:
You may have gone along, it may be three, four maybe months, but you know what’s going to connect you. We know when we do those acts, we are going to be so deeply connected, if we could just fight for that and fight through it.
Brian Classen:
That’s a great word. Just taking that step, the feeling isn’t there, but I know this is the things that are important.
Audra Thomas:
Yes. Don’t trust your feelings.
Eric Thomas:
No.
Audra Thomas:
They will lie to you all the time.
Eric Thomas:
And God has invited us. I mean, we hear God invite us to do things. And what we recognize is we either have to hunker down and say no, or we have to move through, push through that awkward wall, whether it’s me getting up out of bed and going in there. I go to bed first, by the way. So, I have to go in there and say, I’m sorry. Or I choose to lay there and just be mad.
Audra Thomas:
And we’ve done it wrong many of times.
Eric Thomas:
Many a times, thousands of times wrong.
Audra Thomas:
Where we will go weeks or days. That’s something else is how do you handle conflict? We grew up different ways. And he wants to fight it out and I shove it under the rug, and hope he’s not mad tomorrow. But he forgives very easily, where I might hold on to something. So, learning how to maneuver through that, but really always fighting for what’s best. And that’s fighting for each other.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. That is so good. And how we do that, those families of origin fight or flight when they come into it. You said something earlier, Audra, that I really liked was just that this idea of even entertaining some of those questions, that if I’m sitting and beginning to think about these, and fester on the questions, I’ve really already lost a little bit of ground that I want. And I was reminded, as you were speaking to that, I think that’s also the importance of having friends and couples in your life-
Eric Thomas:
Yeah, without a doubt.
Brian Classen:
… who believe in you and will fight for you. So, if Eric is the guy, if I came and say, “Hey, I’m thinking about maybe stepping out on Tammy. Or I’m thinking about this, this.” That would say, “Listen, that’s not even an option, brother.”
Eric Thomas:
That’s right.
Audra Thomas:
Right.
Brian Classen:
Let’s talk about where we are. And I think if we’re not careful, our friends and their desire to empathize, if we’re not careful, feed the mismessages even of this world. And so, I’m going to just hope that you have, for any couple, you just need to have some couples in your life who will fight for your marriage, even days when you don’t feel like fighting and pushing it.
Audra Thomas:
Absolutely. You have to have that.
Eric Thomas:
We have these four words. You go ahead. I’m sorry.
Audra Thomas:
I’ve said we’ve never done it alone. We have always done it in community, whether it’s a life group or a mat group, or just people in our life. I mean, we probably wouldn’t be together today, honestly, with one, without God, and two, without community.
Brian Classen:
Yeah, such a powerful word.
Eric Thomas:
Well, we talk about finding your team.
Audra Thomas:
Yeah. Or your tribe. I say your tribes.
Eric Thomas:
If you don’t find your team. I’ve got men who challenge me. I see through Facebook, I see through texts, what they’re doing with their kids, what they’re doing with their wives. And that feeds me. I’m challenged inside. And then I get to decide whether or not I want to move on those feelings or thoughts.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. It’s a great perspective. And those relationships don’t happen overnight.
Eric Thomas:
They don’t.
Audra Thomas:
No.
Brian Classen:
And you may try one time and it fails and you feel betrayed. And you just got to keep trying. You’ve got to keep investing. And those are rare things. But boy, when you find them, those are some of those lifelong connections.
Audra Thomas:
God is so faithful in that way. I’ve noticed when I come to him and I know the desire of my heart is right, and I beg him either for wisdom or a connection, he has never returned void. He’s always been faithful in that. And you just keep going and you just keep asking him until you get it, because if you know that something that he would approve of, then go after it, keep asking him.
Brian Classen:
Oh, that’s such a good word of encouragement.
Eric Thomas:
I think sometimes we don’t fight. I think sometimes we become apathetic, and we just wait on the other.
Brian Classen:
It’s amazing, especially with men, isn’t it? The passivity that we show in the home, we show it nowhere else.
Eric Thomas:
That’s right.
Brian Classen:
You’re a fighter at your job. You’re a fighter in this context. But boy, we get in our home and we just, the passivity of our manhood, we put on the shelf sometimes. And it is keeping that fight, fight alive where we go.
Audra Thomas:
Yeah. I had that thought though, about whoever thinks of it first. I think you brought up Sunday, that the woman tends to have the pulse on the home and tends to fill the drift. And that’s definitely true for us, because I am the homemaker. I’m home with our kids. I homeschool our children. And so, I feel as pulling apart. And if I’m going to wait around for him to get it, I may be waiting around a long time. I may be very disappointed. If the Lord has revealed it to me, I need to go to him. And I need to say, “I notice these things.” And then give your spouse the permission to come to you as well. And not feel defense, but take it as, “Oh, wow. This is actually a gift. That you notice this and we get to move forward.” Because I think a lot of times we’ve been defensive about it, whether it’s asking for sex, or that I need to be with you just to hang out
Eric Thomas:
Or I just need time away.
Audra Thomas:
Yeah. That’s true too. Actually, I feel very cared for when he sees how overwhelmed I am and he knows I need a day out or to go spend a weekend somewhere. That adds so much value to me. And I feel very cared for in that way.
Brian Classen:
It’s this idea again, that unexpressed expectations lead to unmet expectations.
Audra Thomas:
Absolutely.
Brian Classen:
So many times we sit in that silence and we stew and like, “They should know me. They should know I’m struggling with this.” And that’s such a great reminder for us. If I wait many times for your husband, if you wait for the man to respond, it can go a while and you could be disappointed. And reality is when you share that in the right time, in the right spirit, it doesn’t feel like nagging, but you’re actually giving him a chance to respond now in a way that maybe wasn’t on his radar, and educates him, and hopefully, it communicates that.
Eric Thomas:
And Audra is incredible with that.
Audra Thomas:
I just feel like that’s one of the biggest lies of the pit of the hell, like he should know.
Brian Classen:
Yes.
Audra Thomas:
I hear so many people, “Well, he should just know.” No, neither one of us should just know.
Eric Thomas:
Don’t make me read between the lines.
Audra Thomas:
Right? And he’s always been so faithful. Though, that when I tell him, he follows through. And like, “Well, I’m glad you told me. I will do this.” So, it goes both ways.
Brian Classen:
It’s good stuff. What are some other things that you found in this area of reconnecting, right? We’re in this season now where the margin feels minimal. We’ve got these external challenges from work, children, seasons of life. What have been in some keys that you’ve found through the years?
Eric Thomas:
Well, I’m going to start by saying, this is not a direct, but it’s indirect. But it’s almost like one domino that knocks down all the dominoes. And I’m going to say, finding margin. I now go to bed earlier. I go to bed between 9:00 and 10:00, so I can get up earlier, because once eight o’clock, it hits, my brain is full on and I cannot tune into God to save my life. But if I get up at 5:00 AM, if I get up at even 5:30 or 6:00, finding that space to be present with God, that has probably been the greatest, building that habit. Now, it didn’t start off as a regular habit. It started off with once a month, and then it moved to twice a month. And it’s increased over the years. But that I think has been the domino, the domino that has probably tripped more dominoes than anything. What do you think, Audra, for me?
Audra Thomas:
Agreed. And I also know that we made a huge decision to make a huge shift in our life. We were living in a large home, kids at privates school. Eric was working 70 plus hours a week. And we knew this was not like you were saying, we lived for the vacation. We lived for the one day out of the weekend that we got to spend together. And it was not fulfillment. And so, God invited us into a different way of life. And we actually downsized our home. And we’re able to decrease Eric’s hours working so much. We just got a different life. We got to have more family time. We had more margin. Things did not feel like such a stretch. And I really think that was one of the big, huge shifts in our life, in our marriage.
Brian Classen:
You got to that moment that we’re not feeling trapped. Right? We can change this.
Audra Thomas:
Yes.
Eric Thomas:
But we got to that moment cause of that other moment. That’s where I was going. So, if I hadn’t found that time with God, I wouldn’t have heard him invite us into a totally different direction. And what was happening was as my confidence in God was increasing and my fear and worry, and anxiety was decreasing, and when that happened, I was capable of saying yes to a totally a new direction in my life.
Audra Thomas:
That’s true.
Eric Thomas:
We were more confident to make the move. We were more confident to shed expenses and to decrease. And Audra was in the same spot. I mean, when God asked us to, she said, “Okay. We should be moving into this house with our fourth kid, not downsizing.” But it made all the difference. And we did that in 2013. So, we’ve now had nine years. The funny thing is Ethan was nine at that time. So, he is now you’re getting us right this second at probably a moment that we’ve already talked about a hundred times in the last three months, how glad we are of making that shift in 2013, because here we are launching a son and we have no regret whatsoever.
Audra Thomas:
We don’t. We almost missed it. And we got an invitation because it wasn’t our decision. We got an invitation to live differently. And I’m so glad we said yes to that. There’s been so times over the years that I can see God’s hand in it, that there was just blessing upon blessing.
Eric Thomas:
And our oneness has increased since that time as well.
Audra Thomas:
Very much
Eric Thomas:
Because we have margin. We have margin. I can’t even begin to tell you how much just having margin allows you to focus and not be so spent for six months, or even three months, or a year, whatever it might be. It’s been very helpful.
Brian Classen:
That’s my big takeaway from really what you’re sharing today. It’s such a great reminder, the area of margin.
Eric Thomas:
It is.
Brian Classen:
So, as you listen today and you’re thinking that’s a little bit-
Eric Thomas:
Time with God.
Brian Classen:
Time with God.
Eric Thomas:
Will probably help find margin.
Brian Classen:
There you go. Will help to find where it can be.
Eric Thomas:
You find help. That’s right.
Brian Classen:
And so, that’s good, powerful challenge for us. And also for you as a couple, if you’re saying, “Hey, man, I want to experience that.” That would be my challenge, is to take some time and say, where in our life do we want to create some margin that we don’t have it? And then what’s the plan to get there? These are big decisions. It’s not going to happen like in two weeks, but in three years we want to make sure we’re here. And this may be the financial decisions we need to make, or this means a debt we’re going to have to sacrifice, but let’s come with a plan, because we know the why to go through what we’re going through right now. So, it is those areas of just reconnecting together.
Brian Classen:
Let me just maybe give you some practical, simple things that really will help on that in some small ways. Dr. John Gottman wrote this book and he talked a little bit about this idea of bids for connection with couples. And his point was that on some of the very micro levels, there are times throughout the day we make bids for connection with their spouse, that they either respond to or they don’t. And when they don’t, it creates some separation. When they do, it seems to help.
Brian Classen:
An example of that would be, it’s just different things. I was thinking about Tammy, is good with me on this one so many time. I love cars and I love vehicles. I don’t know anything about them. I just like them. So, if we could be driving down the road and the new Corvette drive by, and I’m like, “I would love someday to have a car like that.” It’s a bid. What I’m really crying out for below the question is, something that has intrigued me, “I’d like you to join me in this conversation.” And she’s stuck with a moment of choice, right? The choice could be, “Well, that’s silly. You’ll never get a car like that. You could never afford a car like that. Why are you always trying to look at other cars?” And shut me down.
Eric Thomas:
“You have a car. Why aren’t you grateful?”
Brian Classen:
Exactly. It’s a Corvette, you should be thrilled with it. And I say, “No, it’s a Corvette.” So, one little phrase says, “I’m disinterested. In fact, I’m even disappointed with you.” Or the bid for connection says, “Tell me why you like that car. If you ever had a car like that, what color would you?” Now, we’re engaged in a little moment of a micro thing that she’s taking interest.
Brian Classen:
Tammy with our travel agency that she runs, she has these trips that she goes, and sets up for people. And she would start talking about it. And it’s easy for me, it’s not my trip. I’m not going on it. Why do I really care where they’re going? And shut it down. But to her, she’s connecting. “And so, tell me why you chose to put them at that place or someplace else?” Those are just little micro connection points throughout the day.
Brian Classen:
And I think what you’ll find, if you find in a moment, your margin, let’s go with that powerful word during our time, when you’re struggling for margin, those micro connections fade away and they become points of being more separated. Or we have enough margin to hear, “He’s not asking about the car. He’s just asking for me to engage in something he has interest in. So, I’m going to enter into a conversation that goes there.” And just those little moments that are there.
Brian Classen:
And Dr. Gottman says this, the key is really, 10 minutes is what their research has found would make a dramatic difference in the life of our relationship. That we want 10 minutes talking about what they really refer to are the inner life issues. And so, 10 minutes talking about things, “What are you thinking about? What are you dreaming about? What’s creating anxiety for you? What are the struggles?” In a busyness of our life, sitting for an hour by the fireside seems a little overwhelming. 10 minutes, where we take that 85% to 90% of our conversations that are logistics and say, “Listen, for 10 minutes, we’re going to talk about these things.”
Brian Classen:
Ladies, if you start with, just a word of encouragement, if you start with your husband by saying, “How are you feeling?” Your 10 minutes is going to go to about 15 seconds. “I’m fine. I’m doing good.” All right. So, a little bit of specifics will help us. “What was your high today? What was your low today?” Just creating those opportunities that their men, when they speak that and ask that, they’re not prying, they’re asking to engage.
Brian Classen:
Men, there may be, as you have that conversation back to your wife, Tammy reminds me her love languages is words. And so, using words and the right words helps. So, it’s not just, “Well, tell me you high or low.” “How are you feeling today? How did things go with the kids? How are things going in your significant relationships that you have with your girlfriends? Or what’s God teaching you?” Or just some very specific things, speak a little bit more intentionality. Whereas for me, if she just gives me high or low, I can run with that as we go. But just those 10 minutes make such a difference of conversations. So, that’s an encouragement for you and a starting point, figuring out 10 minutes, five minutes to say, “Can we just at some point today develop this habit of really dealing with the inner life and not just the logistics as we go.”
Audra Thomas:
That’s good. That’s good. I think we try to do that in the evening. When everybody settles down and goes to bed, we try to get on the same page and not talk about logistics. But I try to remember and ask about something that’s important to him. And I think he does the same thing to me like, “Did you get to go write today? How was that? What did you write about?” Those are important questions for each other.
Brian Classen:
For you, with the busyness of family, talk to us a little bit, so for you, that’s worked in the evening. I mean, just how practical and how scheduled have you had to be in that and what have you found to be helpful?
Audra Thomas:
You have to be very intentional. You have to make a plan. I think we lived a lot of years thinking it’s just going to organically happen. And that’s not true. You have to figure out what really works, because he’s not a night person. So, that’s really not a great time for him. He’s pretty much done. And he shuts down by nine o’clock. So, I know not to talk to him about big, important things at that time of the day.
Eric Thomas:
We can’t argue. I mean, my goodness, if we’re going to argue, my fuse is super short, because I can’t even do it after. 0.
Audra Thomas:
But maybe contacting him in the middle of the day and saying, “I have something I really want to talk with you about. When can we talk?” Putting that out there. And he sometimes he’ll try to come home at lunch and check in, or something like that.
Audra Thomas:
So, we try to leave each other alone during the day, because we’re both so busy. And so, that’s really not a great connection point. We do call and we’re like, “Can you talk?” Or, “Is this a good time?” Because it’s great to connect, but it’s not always the best time.
Brian Classen:
Right.
Eric Thomas:
But what I’ve also noticed is God has increased our hunger, our desire.
Audra Thomas:
Very much.
Eric Thomas:
It’s easy to lose that desire in all of the busyness. But when you allow God to, we have this huge word, it’s called let. There in Romans 12:2, God says, “Let me, let God transform you into a new person.” Let, and that word led is to give access to, or give opportunity to. And we try to let him nurture that hunger, that drive, that point of being in love, because he wants that. He’s leading in that direction. It’s usually us being distracted by so many other things and keeping that from happening. But he has a plan and he is constantly showing me ways of doing that. So, we just have to see it. And like you just said, just finding minutes, sending texts, sending letters, calling.
Eric Thomas:
I can’t tell you, she has started to say something lately that has just been absolutely incredible to me. She has said, “I am your number one fan.” Wow. I can’t you, I’m just being real vulnerable. Right? For some reason, that just hit me hard, but I think she let God show her those words.
Audra Thomas:
Yeah. It means a lot to me, because I don’t think I could always say that, but I truly feel that.
Eric Thomas:
She chose to say it.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. And the later we get, there’s still in the heart of the man is still that desire.
Eric Thomas:
Yes.
Brian Classen:
I mean, again, in high school they wore the letterman jacket and it was the greatest day in your life. And now of a sudden, do they even like us? That’s just that powerful speaking into the heart of your man, such a gift that they give.
Brian Classen:
Wow. Well, a lot of great thoughts. And thanks so much for sharing a little bit of your life. And I think again, my big takeaway is just the power of margin.
Audra Thomas:
Very much.
Brian Classen:
How do we get there and how do we live, and how do we love out of an excess that’s going to come with the margin? When the margin is gone, everything else gets pressure cooked into there.
Audra Thomas:
It’s good word.
Brian Classen:
Wonderful.
Eric Thomas:
It’s hard to reconnect-
Brian Classen:
It’s hard to reconnect.
Eric Thomas:
… when there’s no margin. There really is.
Brian Classen:
Yeah. So, what is it today as you listen to this, where in your life and your relationship, where do you need some margin? What’s the plan? How will you be there in six months, different than you are today? And where do you want to be in three years that you aren’t today? Well, great conversation. Thank you, guys.
Eric Thomas:
Thanks for having us.
Audra Thomas:
Thank you.
Brian Classen:
We’re moving from soulmates, to roommates, and back to soulmates. As we go, I encourage you, a couple of those resources that we’ve put down there in the bottom to make access to there for any links or notes from the podcast. Again, visit lexcity.church, Off the Record, and all of those are available. Well, Thomas, I appreciate you.
Eric Thomas:
That’s right.
Brian Classen:
And thanks for your example of your life and your marriage, and how God is working in you and through you, and doesn’t expect perfection. He just expects us to get up, keep fighting each day for one another.
Audra Thomas:
That’s right.
Brian Classen:
And you’re experiencing what I hope so many of our couples that are listening can experience, when you send a son or a daughter off to college, feeling like, “Boy, we’ve invested. We didn’t do it all perfect, but I don’t have regrets.” When I look at our kids and say, “Man, we are living the life we want to live. And we are expecting great things that God can do in us and through us.”
Brian Classen:
So, thanks so much. Thanks for joining us on this today on Off the Record. And we look forward next time as we continue and conclude our series on Mix Tapes.